Heavy Hand of the CFIA ---- Victimizes a Canadian Cattleman.

[kato]

I don't know about everyone else here, but when we are going to pasture, and are checking for tags, we look at the back of the tags, not the front. If they've been tagged correctly, close to the head, and they've got any kind of hair in their ears at all, you will not be able to even see the front of the tag without handling the cow.

Maybe the government should all buy us tag readers at their expense, so we can scan them as they go by?

[dfarms11]

first off alflex tags are a joke! That is your first problem. I loose half of them in a year. I switched to ryflex and retention is much better. I hear you with trying to keep a tag in a cows ear with 5 different holes in it. If that cow has that many holes already, she knows how to lose those tags. I'm sorry but its not just blind luck that a cow can lose that many tags.

Hears a good thought everyone. If anyone does get hurt tagging an old cow or bull, could we sue the CFIA or gov't for unsafe working conditions? What about occupational health and safety? Could they not be roped into fighting this somehow?

Just wondering?

[grassfarmer]

I think Minister Ritz is too busy cleaning up his faux pas in China to be worrying about a hollow promise he made about eartags. The man is a complete clown, I wouldn't be looking for him to ride to the rescue.

[smcgrath76]

Ken asked me to post this on his
behalf...

Goodmorning Agriville

Thankyou for all the threades relating
to my case. I have learnt something
from all the comments to date. Here is
what I would like to offer back to the
viewers.
I hope this might help other Cattle
producers in the future if and when they
are faced with these circumstances.

I would encourage any and all producers
to refuse to pay the Monetary Fine.
That is powerful. If you are fined
under section 176 or other monetary fine
take option # 5 and seek going through
an oral tribunal hearing. You cannot
sit back and just ignore the fine then
all is lost you have to go through the
proceedures.

Section 176--- "move or
cause movement of an animal or carcass
from farm of origin or other premise
without an approved RFID tag in place"

Please note the following:

1)a producer can recieve this fine up to
24 months after the date of infraction.

2)this fine can and will come by
registered mail to you. You cannot
phone a CFIA office that sent you this
fine because they will not talk to you.

3)You have 30 days to file notice with
the Review tribunal in Ottawa that you
want an oral hearing. THis will be
option 5 on the back of your NOtice of
Violation.

4)Once you file notice that you want a
hearing CFIA forwarded the evidence they
have on you at this time. It is all
about intimidation. The folder had
about 30 pages of documents etc and
witness statements that they received on
you. A CFIA lawyer from Calgary wrote
and contacted me asking who my attorney
was. I responded that I was
representing myself and that I didn't
want any more correspondence from that
lawyer. All information will be sent
through the Review committee tribunal
only.
All of the above are intimidation
factors.

5)Some have commented about Application
proceedure, different ear tags, Place in
ear----THat is what I thought originally
but that is not your defence at all in
this case.

THE INSPECTOR DIDN'T INVESTIGATE ALL
TRANSIT POINTS IE: Inside the trailers,
Back to premise of origin in the
transient loadout pens and loadout
chutes for any loss of RFID buttons.

6)Letter to Minister of Agriculture Hon
Gerry Ritz-----I have a great letter
ready to go to Hon Gerry Ritz and will
be cc to alot of other MPs and MLA and
will be to the Western Producer. This
letter will only go out if CFIA doesn't
let this go forward to a court hearing.
As a cattleman I want this to come out
in the courts to get full ruling on
this. I have been coached and have an
army behind me already -------------this
would be a great case to have in the
court room. The awareness will help all
Canadian Cattleman.

MIN OF AG has the ability
to stop this and prevent this to get to
a hearing-----We want this case to get
to a oral hearing.

7)I filed my evidence in a well bound
manual. It is about 70-80 pages with
pictures. Included are letters to Brad
WIldamen CCA pres, Letter to Steve
Primrose CCIA chairman, My testimonal
of working livestock (processing all
cow-calf pairs) up to day before
TRANSIT, Day of Transit, Letters from
Truckers,
This manual I believe was well done. I
had my witness list included also---it
contained 40 witnesses. I included the
head veterinarians from all seven
districts CFIA in Saskatchewan, The
head of CFIA Saskatchewan, The inspector
and others that were involved in
collecting evidence on my case. I have
Brad WIldamen and Steve Primrose as
witnsesses. Auction Mart Owner and old
client Mr. Roy Rutledge from the
Assinaboia auction Mart . ROy is a
great spokesman and great writer as
well. I included 3-4 practicing
veterinarians on the witness list as
well.

Basically I included people inside of
CFIA and others that "hate CFIA". CFIA
has become known as PUBLIC ENEMY # 1
throughout the country.

My request is to have the hearing in
ENGLISH and SASKATOON and the earliest
timeline is May 15 2010. I will be
representing myself and if allowed will
have one other known Rancher and
personnel friend with me who knows
court-room proceedure.

Hopefully as long as there is a "case"
pending there will be no other charges
laid using section 176 till a ruling is
completed on this case.

At Saskatoon Fall Fair on Nov 13-14 15
this story is spreading like "Wild-fire"
Producers and veterinarians have come
forward and offered me support in a
hand-shake and have even asked can
cattlemen come forward with $$$ to help
this case.

Please note at this time I can only
bring forth section 176 and make
awareness on this issue alone even
though there are other issues of CFIA
that should be addressed as well. THe
fact is that if we can "win" on one
issue this can show the Canadian
Cattleman how to fight back against a
bureaucracy that appears to have so much
power at this time.


I ask all readers in Agriville to keep
spreading this story. Talk to your
neighbours, Talk to your veterinarians,
Phone CFIA and get them to know about
this case. Keep spreading this story.
Create an army of awareness across the
country. This approach has alot more
effect and outcome than just talking or
sending a letter to the minister of
Agriculture.




Ken Habermehl VS. CFIA NOV #0910SKCA
0005-RT #1525


I am going in to the Canadian Western
Agribition this week of NOV 23-28. I
will be participating in helping man the
CAEPLA booth that had huge success at
the Red Deer show a couple of weeks ago.
The coaching and methodogy that is being
used in this case with CANADIAN FOOD
INSPECTION AGENCY CFIA is the same as
the highly successful landowner movement
that is sweeping the country at this
time.


Again thankyou for the threaded
correspondence posted on Agriville. All
those comments have strengthened my
knowledge as I prepare to defend myself
against this case.

Keeping in touch

Dr. Ken Habermehl

[smcgrath76]

what interest us is before cattle where turned loose in pasture did he not know these cattle ?
as a D-V-M and old cattle rancher who put tac,s in so stupid ! why so many ?
we have used them so many times and like them ! [proper application]
we have seen cows with that many brands on them coming through, this
is cruelity to a animal and should be
banned all together .
we think we have a better system than u-s-a or any country . with CFIA .
yes it needs some inproving !
let us all cooperate and work for a better cattle identification .
old feedlot friend

[smcgrath76]

jerryk - the cattle were tagged and
checked prior to leaving the home farm.
Tags were lost in transit, the producer
went home, got tags and replaced them
again, prior to turning the animals out.
the issue becomes one of due diligence
on the part of CFIA. Is the producer
responsible if even a single tag is lost
"in transit"? How can the CFIA make
such a pronouncement if they are not
going to inspect the inside of every
trailer for lost tags?
I believe the issue Ken is concerned
with is who is responsible of the
traceability system placed on producers.

[grassfarmer]

I'm sorry but I'm with jerryk on this one this looks like someone is out to make a test case against CFIA. Don't get me wrong I have no love for that outfit - they have been allowed to dictate some ridiculous stuff particularly regarding the BSE testing issue. I just don't believe the story here - if these pairs were checked through a chute before leaving the home place and 7/29 pairs were missing tags after one road trip they were badly tagged. And now these pictures show that a whole lot more lost tags on summer pasture? Again I say they must have been poorly tagged, the tags are not that bad when properly done.
Sorry but I don't think this story is credible.

[per]

There is a case and a point to be made with the CFIA here for sure. Like GF and others though, I really am struggling with the pin cushion. The odd one doesn't connect or bends over when applying so pulling it out and going back in the same hole would be my recommendation. Not withstanding that I support holding the CIFA accountable to being reasonable in their enforcement.

[dfarms11]

before you guys start spouting off about improper tagging let me ask you this, how many times can you "properly" tag an animal? Once in each ear, maybe twice! If you are in a community pasture you need a CCIA tag, individual cow id tag, your personal farm id tag. Thats 3 right there, now if you put in an insect tag there is 4 there already. if that cow looses one of those tags, how can you "properly" tag her again? Come on. I know that if I ever get caught like this, I can't afford to pay $500. Can any of you? Now don't get me wrong, I tag everything, always have. I do see the advantage in the system. But if the gov't sees fit to fine me for something that can potentially be out of my control. I don't like that.

As a comparison, how would you like a law that fined you for having a flat tire on the side of the road? Some could say that it was your fault that you drove over a nail, tires are too old and bound to be flat, etc. Please tell me the difference between them, and why don't we have a law like this?

[kato]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The cattle were not changing hands. The CFIA has much better things to do than hang around a community pasture.

I've never seen an inspector yet at an auction mart. Ever. Are they hiding behind a corner somewhere? Or maybe it's not so much fun sitting in a cold damp barn as it is sitting out in the sun on a nice spring day at the pasture?

[smcgrath76]

From Ken H...
If you could add this some time. Your
responders are all caught up on the Nos
of holes in the cows ears. I did the
thoughout inspection after I asked for a
complete oral tribunal. The pictures
were taken of the holes in the ears and
with the male tags in place of the old
existing holes for a reason.

The inspector that day at the pasture
(very green) in cattle knowledge
inquired if I ever tagged the cattle
before? He was poking around too close
to a cows head while she was in an old
archaeic chute putting his body at risk.
He blatenly asked "I have to see if you
even tagged at all? Are there any
holes?

This is for the hearing proceedure.
THese are not all Rfid holes. Over the
10 years I have owned this animal bought
as a bred-heifer she has accumulated
this situation.
SOme of them could be FLy tag holes also
because one of the PFRA pastures has
mandatory Fly tag application as well.

Point being made that there is a problem
when these cows get to the Auction Mart
and are sold as cull cows. Those
workers tagging them are getting their
hands crushed. THis complaint is at the
Min of Ag office in Regina.

Brad Wildamen speaks all over the
country right now. The RFID tags don't
stay in, THey come apart. This
traceability system is the best we have
at this time but it has limitations. If
CFIA wants to implement a fine on
section 176 then they have to recognize
this fact. Inspectors have to examine
all transit points from loading at farm
premise to delivery point before this
fine can hold up. THose that are
tagging deserve that aspect of CFIA.
THis is the reason Min of AG Gerry Ritz
comments that they have no budget for
implementing this part of the act.


THis is why this case has to come
forward. Make sure that CFIA, CCIA and
CCA and cattlemen understand this part
of the act and know the limitations.
What happens if the movement rules
proceed the way some parties would like
it to proceed. Checking each animal
from pasture to pasture. THis would
really cripple the Canadian Cattle
Industry.

I have been around a long time working
with cattlemen and in the cattle
industry. How many times I see the best
operators have a "problem" with
application or something working with
their cattle. Even the best have a
mishap sometime or another.

Ken H.

[per]

Thanks, that clears up the male button thing for me. I never understood that was to show old previous tagging activity.

[cswilson]

Until they find tags that stay in the whole program is a joke-GrassFarmer next thing you'll tell us Luings tag themselves lol. I've ranched all my life and worked at the salebarn-the cost to the industry is enormous. The old steel bangs tags were easy to put in and stayed in-maybe they should develop technology to support that type of tag. If all they want to do is trace the herd of origen a brand works as good as anything-getting branded as a calf can't be any more stressful than getting tagged repeatedly duriung your lifetime. Maybe someone should develop an I'D bolus that you could p[ace like a rumen magnet-at least it should stay put.

[smcgrath76]

I think for me the biggest concern is
when does my responsibility end. If one
calf loses a tag on the truck (may have
been tagged a year earlier and passed a
preload inspection), am I still
responsible to the tune of $500 if he
comes off the truck with his tag
missing? What if he goes to an auction
market, unloads tagged and loses his tag
before the sale? He is still under my
ownership, so again am I supposed to be
responsible when he fails the tag test
at loadout? Same for a packing plant.
Does it have to be 1/2 a load or does
one calf qualify for action and a fine?
What about a cow that went onto pasture
tagged, and loses her tag over the
summer?
I agree with the national traceability
program but I think we need clear
definition around responsibilities and a
reasonable program. No one is paying me
more for my calves, but they sure drop
the price to help pay for equipment and
inspectors...

[grassfarmer]

I think there are a lot of issues tied up here under one banner that need to be separated.
First of all the tags do stay in - largely. There is lots of anecdotal tales about tag loss, barcode tags, fly tags etc but this issue is really about RFID tags or it will be after Jan 1st. I don't know about anybody else but I have certainly had well under 1% loss rate with RFIDs. Remember that the tags were approved for national ID after being proven for retention ability. If you are losing 30% you are not tagging them right. I have seen many at the auctions tagged in the outside third of the ear, some with the button part on the outside(back) of the ear and in some cases applied to an existing dangle tag instead of the ear!
Maybe on retention we should be pushing that if cattle TAGGED PROPERLY lose their RFID tags the tag manufacturer bears the responsibility and also supplies a replacement tag on request?

Another answer to tag loss is to double tag - given the retention levels the tags achieved before being approved there is virtually no chance an animal would lose both tags IF PROPERLY APPLIED. It needn't cost more either - when we went to double tags in Europe the companies were essentially told to provide 2 tags for the price of one.

CS raises a good question - is all we want to do trace the herd of origin? I thought that was the intent of the original CCIA scheme with the barcode tags. I think we went to the RFIDs so that they could read the age verification data easily at the packers. Except in reality they don't do that - this dentition trumps age verification is garbage and should be stopped immediately. It is an excuse for the packers to steal a few extra cattle, I'm surprised the cattle organisations are not all over that issue.

The next issue is traceability - which we will need in future as risk mitigation against a major disease outbreak. This requires RFIDs so that we can track the cattle movements accurately at a speed that doesn't impede commerce. Herd of origin information is not good enough for traceability - what if a cow has been through 4 herds before she contracts a disease - you need to know all the herds not just the one she was born in 10 years ago.

I believe in age verification and traceability and we can't have these without a credible system. We need a system and to make sure it works we need enforcement. I agree with Sean on the need for producers to know the extend of their liability. CFIA simply must publish somewhere their policy on retention rates and what triggers prosecution. Has anyone asked for that information? do any of the cattle organisations know? have they asked? I don't see how they could legitimetly prosecute without having first set out what the standard is.
Bottom line cattle identification and tagging is doable - other countries(in some cases our competitors) manage and I think to stay in the game we must to. If others want to revert to a system that worked in the past that would be fine too - but please if that's the case lets stop the BSing about having a world leading identification /traceability program. We haven't even got the basics in place yet.