No right way to do a wrong thing.

[Happytrails]

After a bit of digging I got faxed a copy of the guiding principles for traceability that ABP apparently bought into last October and the board (re)approved in April. I haven't found it on their website and don't know why it isn't being publicized. Maybe because the delegates have never voted on it and, au contrair, have passed resolutions to oppose the mandatory aspects of ALMS including ID tag tracking. Anyway in my view the guiding principles have some serious contradictions. For example they have a goal to have national traceabity in place by 2011. At the same time they must ensure that commerce will not be impeded by it. Also they want to have the benefits exceed the costs. How can all these objectives be satisfied?

[Happytrails]

Ran out of space but maybe just as well. All I ask of my fellow cattle people is to ponder the implications of these schemes and decide if you want to go willingly into the night or make a stand! My take. We already have traceability by ID tag. We already have movement tracking by LIS. The rest of this is a colossal scam and bluff. Are we going to take it? If you think not contact your ABP delegates, MLA, and MP to let them know what you think. We can take our industry back. HT

[grassfarmer]

Back where - to the dark ages?

[SADIE]

Not the dark ages at all. The flaws already in trying to implement traceability are arising across the country. There is no doubt now that traceability will result in greater prices in the beef industry but only because of the huge exodus of the cattlemen across the country. Especially the cow-calf producer taking his cattle to PFRA for intermingling pastures. This is why my case has to go the route through the tribunal hearing so that cattlemen can see the whole process. The phone calls across Sask and Man are increasing as more victoms are being "fined" or "threatened a fine by phone by CFIA". I have talked on phone to R. Kaiser and Sawbones over the newest action through the Manitoba area. Now these once "registered RFID tags" in your name are showing up on other cattle. Walk the pens at auction markets and they carpet the alleyways. On this thread this is all I can say at this time. GF I encourage you if you have time to come to Saskatoon to the tribunal hearing June 15 & 16. Several "well known" cattleman who once thought "traceability was the answer" are now seeing the "huge problems" being encountered in the industy in the field.

Hauling to PFRA the next three days. The talk around Saskatchewan is 1-2 "button cops" at each pasture. Is this "HUGE PUSH ON HEAVY HAND OF CFIA" really a "retaliation to the Class Action BSE lawsuit that is building?".

[SADIE]

Not the dark ages at all. The flaws already in trying to implement traceability are arising across the country. There is no doubt now that traceability will result in greater prices in the beef industry but only because of the huge exodus of the cattlemen across the country. Especially the cow-calf producer taking his cattle to PFRA for intermingling pastures. This is why my case has to go the route through the tribunal hearing so that cattlemen can see the whole process. The phone calls across Sask and Man are increasing as more victoms are being "fined" or "threatened a fine by phone by CFIA". I have talked on phone to R. Kaiser and Sawbones over the newest action through the Manitoba area. Now these once "registered RFID tags" in your name are showing up on other cattle. Walk the pens at auction markets and they carpet the alleyways. On this thread this is all I can say at this time. GF I encourage you if you have time to come to Saskatoon to the tribunal hearing June 15 & 16. Several "well known" cattleman who once thought "traceability was the answer" are now seeing the "huge problems" being encountered in the industy in the field.

Hauling to PFRA the next three days. The talk around Saskatchewan is 1-2 "button cops" at each pasture. Is this "HUGE PUSH ON HEAVY HAND OF CFIA" really a "retaliation to the Class Action BSE lawsuit that is building?".

[grassfarmer]

"We already have traceability by ID tag. We already have movement tracking by LIS."

I don't consider these as credible systems as they currently stand. The EID tag indicates where a calf was born it does nothing to indicate where it has been. The movement tracking by LIS is a joke if you are referring to brand inspection/livestock manifests.
I have bought a lot of cows, mainly from dispersals that were branded when I bought them. They often came with a bill of sale indicating several different brands. To sell branded cull cows I need to provide my bill of sale to the brand inspector at the auction before they release the proceeds. I have sold many, many cull cows that did not carry the brands indicated on the bill of sale. If they didn't match anything on the bill of sale I just put a question mark in the brand box on the manifest and submitted the bill of sale and always got paid for the cows. This only deals with livestock ownership through brands and manifests - what about all the unbranded cows that are moved on manifests - there is no way of quickly and reliably backtracking these animals if they are co-mingled at auction.

Here is a scenario for you happy trails I'd like you to consider it and tell me how you would handle it.

A foot and mouth outbreak occurs in Alberta - not impossible by any means. It is detected in a feedlot at High River. The affected cattle are in a pen assembled recently from cattle bought through 4 separate auctions in the last two weeks. The affected animals are unbranded black heifers. Unfortunately unbranded black heifers came in from three of the auctions, and ultimately 8 different ranches of birth. But some of the cattle were sold as calves to backgrounders who later resold them as feeders. Instantly the feedlot is quarantined,as are the auctions involved and any cattle that went through the auction two weeks before and since the sale. The trucks that hauled the cattle plus any other cattle they have since hauled and any premises they have visited. The clock is ticking....
Tell me how long you think it will take to accurately trace the movements of all the affected animals and find the source of the outbreak?

My answer would be several weeks and that delay would potentially cost the industry, producers and taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars.
The stupid thing is we are already putting in EIDs which could trace movements accurately and instantly - what we need is a system to read cattle EIDs in and out of auctions and points of congregation, on the tail gates of commercial truckers, feedlots and packing plants. The system is not difficult - it has been shown to work and not impede commerce. I think ultimately this is the system we will get - it is the right system. What I think needs to happen is for producers to realise this and stop niggling about whether we want or need a system and start lobbying Government to introduce AND PAY FOR the installation and operation of the system. If we highlight what NOT having a system in place might cost them I'm sure they would be keen to invest.
The foot and mouth outbreak in the UK in 2001 caused 10 million animals to be slaughtered. It could have been a lot less if they didn't have a stupid, slow paper based system of tracking movements. Still their paper system then was light years ahead of the one we currently have.

[kato]

What's this newest action in Manitoba?

[Happytrails]

The advocates of livestock movement tracking by RFID tag are asking us to record and report the least important and most difficult to obtain bit of information about a cow beast in transition. They somehow think that a blizzard of week old tag data is going to help contain a disease outbreak. Cattle exist, are managed and are traded in groups. The most pertinent info for a group of cattle is where they are. The second is what brands they carry. The third is who owns them. The fourth is the head count. The fifth is the destination if transported. The sixth is their description. Then comes weight. Maybe the eighth is their ID tag #'s and only if there is a disease outbreak. The first seven are routinely determined by experienced stockmen by conventional means. Why would we go to great expense and bother to read their tags when it is almost never needed? An animal's current location is self evident. The most suspect cattle for contagious contact are also at that location. We don't need to consult the CCIA to identify them. Movement tracking by ID tag is a hoax and a scam. HT

[grassfarmer]

So you have no idea how to manage or contain a disease outbreak in the modern age HT? As I suspected - back to the dark ages and pretend there is no risk until a disaster unfolds. With such an enlightened attitude maybe you could enlighten me what the words "hoax" and "scam" mean when used in this context?

[Happytrails]

Rest of industry. Please speak your piece. If we stay mum the the bluffers will have their way. Animal movement tracking by ID tag is the agenda of a small group of opportunists, power trippers and control freaks. We don't need it. It will increase our expenses and drive more of the little guys out of cattle. I put it in the same category and the enhanced feed ban for bright ideas. HT

[SADIE]

Right on Happytrails. Up early going to the field. There is an old saying out there:


"There we stood, Three against 10,000 the toughest 3 we ever fought in our lives"

GF and a few "beaurocrats" that are trying to shove traceability down our throats from the top down. This is what happens when the movement comes from the grass-roots back to the top.

GF---Are you in the dark ages because of the "Blickers" you are wearing?

[sagewood]

Well folks, if you think doing the paperwork for an I.D. tag is onerous, how would you like to have to carry a 'passport' for each cow as she moves around the country and record data for her in that? The folks in the British Isles do just that. I think that having an I.D. and a reader is pretty effortless compared to checking paperwork on 100 head of cows everytime they move to a new pasture. I know the paperwork takes a little more time, but if we don't appear to be working at traceability of our livestock then we surely will not get into any more markets. As one wise man I know says 'Perception is reality--facts are negotiable'. So keep a record of all the tags your buy--collect the plastic bags with the #'s on them if that is the best you can do, at least you know what tags you used. I consider myself one of the 'little guys' you talk about and I have complete health records on all my livestock, plus a photo of each and I keep track of who is in herd and who is shipped etc., just for my own records. I know it takes a little time, but believe me, if the CFIA ever audits me again (and I have been audited once in the early days) I can give them all the information they need and then some--that last time they asked for my 'records', they had them the same day--never heard a word from them. If it costs me a little time and effort, I believe it is worth it--further it gives me a better handle on what my cattle are doing in regard to health, production and the like. You cannot improve what you cannot measure, so the addition of paperwork for a tag is no big deal to this 'little guy' in the industry. I am hopeful that the rest of Canada comes up to speed and that we in Canada at least are all on the same playing field with regard to traceability--we have done it for years with regard to herd health, so what's the big deal? Never good to gaze backwards--and then start moving in that direction.

[Happytrails]

Right on Sagewood for your approach to this matter. I owe an apology to people like you who support ID tag movement tracking because they think it is the right thing. However I disagree that what works for you is good as a blanket policy for the industry. In Alberta we already have movement tracking provided by LIS. Now I realize that is not the case in much of the rest of Canada. Maybe the provinces which don't currently have livestock inspection could try the new system to prove that it works. Right now it feels like Alberta is being asked to change because of the shortcomings in other parts of Canada. Is that the tail trying to wag the dog or what? As for not being able to trace the whereabouts of a critter without reading the tags every move we should consider normal operations. Most cattle are born, live a short but carefree life and then are harvested. They usually have either 2 or 3 owners by slaughter. So if traceback is needed we start out knowing either all of its owners or 2 out of 3. A pretty good start I would say. The example of a trader cow with 6 or 7 brands on her is an exception which should be considered comingled with the Canadian herd and probably shared sex partners with many. Thanks for the interest and thanks Sadie for speaking out. HT