Thoughts about bulls!

[cowman]

I sometimes am amazed at the high prices paid for young bulls at the big shows and sales.$35,000 , $50,000 or more. They look right, they have all the good numbers etc. etc. What happens if they actually turn out to be a dog? Are they immediately shipped for hamburger? I really doubt it.
One thing I like about using A.I. is I can use just about the very best for just a little bit of money. The American companys have very extensive data on progeny from their bulls(ABS). If they say a calf will weigh so much they are pretty darn close! Or if they say a bulls daughters will milk they will! Now put that up against the high price unproven calf! Some of the biggest show winners should have been cut the day they were born!
A.I. is a pain but really anybody can do it. Heat detection is the hard part...it actually requires a lot of time. I would encourage any one who has ever been interested to go take a course...you will learn so much and you'll meet a whole bunch of really interesting people and come away with a whole new outlook.

[Muttley]

Your right about A.I. we sell bulls for a living and seem to get the higher prices for the A.I. ones. Though I have gotten pretty good bucks for ones sired by our herd bulls it has taken a few years to prove themselves to the customers.
One thing that I am concerned about is when sellers tell us that a particular bull will be good for heifers. Unless you have good data on both dam and sire how do you know. Birth weight is only a guide line and buyers need to look at other things. E.P.D.'S are nice but some times you need to have a good hard look at the bull itself. On our farm if we have had calving difficulties from a sire neither he or his sons are recommended for heifers, no matter what the B.W.
The bull we use on our heifers has a 98 lbs. birth weight. The thing about him is he is built right. Our senior herd sire has a B.W. of 96 lbs. and was used on heifers and we have many sons out working as well with no reports of calving problems that are related to the bulls.
Our heifers usually calve in the 75-85 lbs. range. So by the way we breed you do not have to have little calves to have calving ease, and I do not want to be out all night pulling calves or taking them to a vet.
One other note these are Black Angus bulls.

[cowman]

You are sure right about a calf being built right. ABS not only has info on birth weights but on calving ease and on the bulls daughters' calving ease. I remember once I used a Simmental bull(A.I.) with a high birth weight indication but also a high calving ease score. The calves were 120-130 lbs. but just slid right out. They were as long as freight train! I think I only pulled one out of a half dozen and he was backwards. The hfrs. I kept from this bull turned out to be excellent cows as his big advantage was milk and growth.
I now aim for a calf in the 100-115 lb. range and have very few problems. My cows are mostly an Angus/hereford/simmental cross and I use Char/sim cross bulls on them. I continue to use A.I. to bring in new blood. It is not an easy breeding program but it's given me a cow I can live with and make a buck on. For hfrs. I still tend to use an Angus bull.

[pandiana]

I must admit that, like you cowman, I have some serious doubts about a young, unproven bull being worth $50K no matter what his phenotype, pedigree or numbers are. Until this bull is proven he is not worth all that much. It would seem to me that a bull with proofs on calving ease, performance, milk, feet and legs and udders on the other hand could well be worth a lot of money. But the fact that this kind of money is out there could be a testament as to how difficult it is to get everything you want in one genetic package.

[pandiana]

I think that it is rather dangerous to associate calving ease with a particular breed. Having just returned from touring the barns at Farmfair and Agribition I was surprised at how many 110 lb bw/2000 lb mature Angus cows were in the barn.

I do agree that shape, bw and EPD's all taken together are a good predictor of calving ease. Even then, I tend to try them out on cows first.

As has been discussed before, BW as an indicator of calving ease can be extremely misleading without more information such as 1) Age and/or Size of Dam (BW tends to average about 6.5% of dam weight accross breeds, i.e. heifers and small cows could have an 85 lb calf that would require help),2) Average BW of contemporaries or pen mates (if all calves were raised under the same management and environment in a poor year, the biggest calf in the pen might be smaller than the historical average), and 3) where the bull was raised (cattle raised in short grass country and in warmer geographic locales tend to have lower birthweights as do calves born in fall and summer). EPD's attempt to take all of the above factors into consideration as well as utilizing the information of parents and progeny where available to predict the genetics of an individual animal.

[dfarms11]

About the $50000 yearling bull, dont fool yourself, the buyer of that bull just sold one of his bulls to the seller of that one for the same price. When cattle are bringing that much money, its a marketing ploy pure and simple.

[pandiana]

Cowman, I agree that heat detection is the weak link in AI. It is time consuming and having to walk 70 or so cows in from pens or pasture to be bred is often a test of patience and dedication.
Looking back though, a couple of years ago we had it pretty good. One of my good old cows slipped her calf over winter. Come spring she was 'androgenized' (a buller)and rode every cow that was in heat. It was very easy to train her with a little grain to take her and her girlfriend up to the barn. This was the easiest AI year we have had. Not only did she do the heat detection, all we had to do was open a gate and she brought them in. As she was 10 years old and open we sold her after breeding, but I can't help wonder if we made a mistake.

[cowman]

dfarms 11: While a lot of that sort of thing goes on, that isn't the whole story. You have to realize there are a lot of rich people in the purebred game where money is the least of their concerns. For them the trophy or ribbon are way more important than the money. Sort of like the horsey set.
My grandfather was one of the top breeders back in the 40's/50's and he sold a bull at Calgary that brought enough to buy 3 quarters of land! So I guess in relativity $50,000 isn't really a lot of money. The buyer owned a large construction company.
Pandianna: Of course there are lots of Angus bulls that throw big calves. Look how far this breed has come in the last several years and how could it not be? But by and large they are a finer boned animal and throw smaller calves...you have to be careful with selection. Look for narrow shoulders and hips and fine bone, as well as all the data.
I have used a "souped up" cow in the past and it works really good. After 20 years at this I've gotten pretty good at detection and I only A.I. for 21 days, then out they all go with the bulls. If I miss some it doesn't matter as the bull will find them! I start A.I. about 2-3 weeks before my regular breeding season. I only A.I. about twenty of my best cows.

[Muttley]

In respect to the over $50,000.00 bull at agribition. I know the new owners and had the pleasure of seeing the bull after the sale. He was purchased by Six Mile Red Angus and will be used only in their herd for awile. There will be no semen available for some time on him. He was bought to enhance their breeding program on their ranch.
Knowing what they can sell females and bulls for, they will get their money back on him with no problem, and the amount payed will only help their marketing plan.

[cowman]

I have no doubt this is entirely true and I'm sure they do a very good job. This is the old purebred game and it is a very lucrative business if you are at the top end. It is a lot of work and the people involved earn their money. The cattle business is kind of funny in a way. There are so many ways and ideas about how to raise cattle. None of them are right or wrong, just different. For me crossbreeding and low cost production is paramount while for others it might be a uniform color or breed. Personally, I'm committed to the bottom line while not working myself to death.

[pandiana]

Purebred bulls sold to purebred breeders is a rather different prospect, I agree. There is a lot of fluff involved. A bull that has been campaigned across the country has a lot of advertising and promotion dollars invested in him. Some of these 'intangibles' are transfered to the new owner whose breeding program hits the ground running with a bulls that is already recognized in the industry. It is hard to put a dollar figure on these and only time will tell whether it was a good investment.

[cowman]

It definitely is a rich mans game and hey, whatever! It doesn't really have a lot to do with the real nuts and bolt world of the commercial cattleman. Cattle shows have been a real problem in cattle production! Maybe you're too young to remember the "dwarfism" problem? It ruined a lot of people! That was the purebred industry leading the way!