Second class citizens?

[burnt]

"mcfarms Reply posted Jul 14, 2010:13 Kato
Ever hear of a fellow named Darwin, you either evolve or you die off it's been going on for more than a couple years. And it applies to business as well as it applies to nature."

mcfarms - it will be interesting to see how long a person can maintain that cavalier attitude (based on a highly doubtful theory, by the way) when it's their neck on the chopping block.

[mcfarms]

Burnt
Don't know I'll let you know when it happens? But based on the fact we've been here for over 100 years and we've never been stronger or more financially secure than we are right now you might have to wait a while.

Read my posting on the commodity side about why these ad hoc programs are going to hurt us all in the long run and then tell me how I should think.
I am adamantly against ad hoc farm support programs of any type as it allows what are supposed to be the properly designed programs to escape scrutiny and improvement.

[grassfarmer]

I kind of understand your logic mcfarms but it appears to be skewed. You talk of Darwinism - evolution with survival of the fittest - but with Government help. You still support programs but like to pick and choose which you like which you don't.
The starting point of this thread was Kato posting a Siemans essay based on what the Saskatchewan Cattle organisation was asking for. That is the part that annoys me. These commodity organisations boast like you that they are all about free enterprise and don't want the Government involved yet are happy to be involved in negotiating "acceptable programs" as part of their mandate. Unfortunately organisations like ABP are so stupid they fought tooth and nail to raise the Agristability cap per business from $500,000 to $4 million and are then surprised when there are not enough funds to go around so then go to Government on bended knee asking for Ad Hoc programs to help producers get through.
Why don't they, or you, instead go after fixing the real problems - the captive supply, the retail and packer concentration, the ineffective competition bureau? If you did that you wouldn't need programs period. Then you could truly claim to be free market, non subsidised producers. That is what I support not rhetoric about free market solutions that are anything but.

[kato]

Could you please enlighten the rest of us as to how you've managed to achieve a financial position that is stronger than it's ever been?

I'd really like to know.

[T.N.T.]

Sorry i didn't respond yesterday,i took the boys fishing to get there minds off of things.Now in response to grassfarmer i hate doing paperwork and i don't believe in ad hoc programs,agristability or any of that other crap,so i couldn't be bothered doing them.Also everytime you fill out one of those programs they want to know exactly what you have,well that is up to me and my family to know,none of there damn business!!The only insurance i carry on my farm is crop insurance and hail insurance,and that i pay for so i know i have some coverage.As for you Kato i did sign off on that class action settlement.I think that is one of the biggest jokes yet,but everyone needs something to believe in to keep them moving forward.So i hope if there is a payment for that suit,you get mine.

[T.N.T.]

I couldn't agree with you more ProFarmer,cows might not be paying a lot of bills right now.But i would rather have my cows around and be able to classify myself as a cattleman,then to classify myself as strictly a grain farmer.How embarrassing wouldn't that be!!

[kato]

OK, so you guys make your living from your grain farms, and are embarrassed to call yourselves grain farmers, so you keep cows on the side, at a loss, so you can call yourselves cattle producers. And in the meantime, advocate for the removal of ad hoc programs to assist cattle producers.

mmm....

Sit and think about just what that sounds like to full time 100% cattle producers who depend on cattle and only cattle for their livings.

There are lots of us out there.

[T.N.T.]

I didn't say that,i would call myself a grain farmer,if most of them weren't a bunch of whinning cry babys and always wanting the goverment to come to there rescue.I have always preferred my cows over my land.I have always had more respect for any cattleman then any grain farmer.

[kato]

Good to hear.

[rkaiser]

Interesting that you think the class action is a big joke TNT. You did not have to sign on as every cattle producer is included,but you surely have the right to sign off. Have you?

Why do you feel it is a joke TNT?

[T.N.T.]

Yes i have signed off Randy.Why do i think it is a big joke,because the goverment doesn't care about us cattleman,they never have and they never will!!The goverment allowed the big corporations to keep buying out all the little slaughter plants until we only have 2 left and no other competition and they are in full control now.I hope you guys do win your lawsuit and are rewarded well for your long fight,but when it comes to our goverment they will just find a way to get out of it.And if they do admit you are right,you will each get maybe a couple of thousand and get sent on your merry way.We lost control of our cattle industry a long time ago,and i doubt we will ever get it back!!I sure hope you can prove me wrong though,before the boys take over the farm completly,and this will be just another one of those grain farms.

[smcgrath76]

I am not a fan of Ad Hoc programs, but I
still like getting cheques in the mail
(CAPRI anyone?). I think that there are
very few effective risk management
programs for cattle producers, however
there is also somewhat less risk in many
ways. It is not often that a hail storm
will take out my entire calf crop for
example.
One program that I think works well is
the Alberta moisture insurance program.
It is reasonably bankable, affordable
and insures hay, pasture and greenfeed
crops. Payments are also reasonably
timely.
I think control of the industry as a
whole has gone to 2 and most likely is
headed towards a single player. I think
that a lot of producer organizations,
based on their funding base cannot speak
out for the sector on the ground, but
also that the folks on the ground are
seldom cooperative with those up the
chain so to speak or with each other.
This serves to put a lot of producers
who I highly respect, that volunteer or
are paid for their time in a no win
position, and prevents others from
speaking out, further disabling
effective producer organizations.
I think government needs to be involved
in some areas and needs to get out of
the way in others, but I think the whole
industry needs to be ground driven.
Further, as a ranching only business, we
are doing OK, but I do envy the
grainfarmer who can always have lower
overheads and cheaper feed on his cattle
enterprise than I...