More Bull

[pandiana]

Assuming that you do not raise your own bulls, what is the best way to find a bull that meets all of your requirements? Is price a good indicator of the quality of a bull? What about the reputation of the breeder? Is buying at bull sales the best way to go?

[cowman]

Pandiana: I do mainly raise me own bulls but occasionally buy one. I only buy from people I know. People who are honest and trustworthy.
Price is a fairly good indicator. These people know their cattle and know which ones are good and price them accordingly. I have a big problem with bull sales. You have to push that bull hard or he won't compete! Is this really in the bulls' long term interest? I'm not knocking the breeders...That's just how the game works. Been there, done that!

[pandiana]

Regarding 'pushing bulls', I know a breeder that creep feeds a straight barely ration to all his bulls. I guess you could say that was pushing them. The reason given is that this is what is going to happen to the progeny of this bull when they go on feed and this is a way of testing them.
On the other hand, if buyers didn't buy the 'pushed bulls' because they might break down, there would be little incentive to do this. But this just isn't the case as you pointed out. The biggest, heaviest bulls in most cases get the premium.

[countryguy]

Obviously a breeder like this has no regard for his customers and I highly doubt he will remain in business very long.He probably has the best looking bulls around at the beginning of breeding season but I'd sure like to see those bulls after 50 or 60 days of breeding.

[Muttley]

As a breeder I do not push my bulls. In fact you could possilbly say they could be fed a little harder. My customer base is large cow herds and ranches, and in general my bulls go right to pasture in April and breed in May or June. I like to sell a bull that is capable of keeping up with the herd and not laying under a tree. As well I am having very good reports back from customers on semen, feet, and longevity.
My reputation is more important to me than getting the high seller. We feel it is best to raise a few more calves for income than push animals to the point of effecting our customers needs.
You do not need to have these large bulls fed so hard. The breeding pasture is not the same as the feeding pen. The feeding pen is a short term plan, where as the breeding pasture is year after year. A bull that gives you a calf on the first cycle will be more valuable than one on the third.

[cowman]

I am so glad to hear you don't do that. I can also tell you, you will never stand in the winners circle! I have seen breeders try to bring bulls to consignment sales that were grown out properly and it was a joke.
I heard that old garbage about how the calves were going to have to be able to stand barley thirty years ago... it was BS then, as it is now! His calves are going to be dead at 18 months! A bull has to be alive for a few years and he has to be able to walk. As far as I'm concerned a young animal(male or female) should never see barley!

[Muttley]

I agree about the winners circle. I just sold some registered heifers last week at a select sale in Sk. My heifers were trimmed and groomed but not as showy as many. We did very well, no where near the bottom but we would have done better with more feed. I wanted them functional and thats what the people that purchased them said they were.

[gopher]

pandiana - Your questions regarding the buying of bulls is something that I wrestled with several times. I use to buy at the local bull sales but had trouble finding ones that were not over fed. Also, if I did happen to have trouble with a bull it was always a hassle to get it dealt with because each year the bulls came from different ranches.
The last 4 years I've been buying bulls from the same outfit ( Mac Creech of Quantock Livestock at Lloydminster ) and his bulls are fed a silage and hay ration and are not overly fat. The most important thing to me is that he knows what his bulls will do for you. I phone him and tell him what I'm looking for and he picks the bulls for me. His bulls are fully guaranteed. I did have trouble with one bull and when I phoned him there was another bull here the next day.
So to answer your question, I would not judge a bull by the price. One can buy from an auction or private treaty but the important thing is to be confident you are getting a good product backed by excellent service. When you find a breeder that fits the bill - stay with him.

[pandiana]

gopher: I always wondered about buying from the same breeder year after year? Do you buy only registered bulls? How do you know what the pedigree on the bulls you are using and whether you are buying the same breeding next year or do you change breeds.

[pandiana]

I hear what Muttley and Cowman are saying. I agree that integrity is as much as part of what you are selling as the animal. Is performance data kept and are they accurate? Are you animals fed conservatively but well? Are the pedigrees accurate (bred to the sire you say they are)? Do you put your reputation on the line by registering all of the bulls you sell?
But, reality kicks in when the best prices go to the high profile breeders who breed show stock and push their bulls.

[Muttley]

I would consider myself a low profile breeder. But to me success is being able to sell year after year to the same people, and to see them bring other customers to my sale or yard each year with them. So what if I'm not the high seller. We quite often see those high sellers at the sales but they do not tell us about all the culls or average bulls still at home. When I buy bulls I like to see the dam, and other brothers as well. I start looking now for my needs for next year so that I can follow the progress of the ones I am intersested in.

[gopher]

pandiana - We always purchase registered bulls, however we normally sell all our calves so it hasn't been a problem buying from the same outfit. We do use a different breed of bull now and then just to keep the hybrid vigor strong.
I read the response from muttley and agree with his method of selling bulls - I guess it all boils down to having trust in each other.

[cowman]

I am not against registering bulls, but I do believe some of the breed organizations have gotten a little costly. What does membership cost and registration cost? How much does it add onto the price of that bull?
I remember a large Charlais breeder in Alberta who got in a lot of trouble for selling bulls without registration papers. He printed up 5 generation sheets but he figured most commercial guys couldn't really care if they had a registration paper. And he was very successful at it until the Charlais association came down hard on him. I know another breeder who gave you a choice...papers or a bottle of rye! He said there was a lot more interest in the rye than the papers!
With an established, honest breeder are papers necessary for the commercial market? I guess we all know that a lot of bulls sell with no papers.

[Muttley]

I sell a few purebred and hybred bulls each year. Theses are mostly from purbred cows that did not get papered as calves or from cows that may carry another breed. We always use registered bulls as sires. I have never had a problem and quite often get requests for these bulls versus the papered ones.
The most important thing when doing this is to tell the customer everything I know about the history of dam and sire. There is many purbred sires out there of every breed that can be registered but could have been sired by another breed. The breed ass. only request DNA samples for bulls going to be use for registering calves so if the neighbors bull came a visiting and you did not know it you may have unknown to yourself registered a calf that was not pure.
A few years ago we purchased a cow from a respected sale and sold many offspring from her including a female. When one bull needed to be blood typed for parent identification it was determined that the wrong sire was listed on the cow and of course all the progency as well. We were lucky it was of the same breed but had this been from another breed I could have been in for a real battle.

[pandiana]

According to my understanding, it is against the law (Livestock Pedigree Act) to sell a bull as a purebred without registrations papers. In other words, if its sold as Angus, Gelbvieh or Charolais its' registered, otherwise its just a bull.

Why buy a registered bull?

Benefits of knowing the pedigree. Gopher mentioned hybrid vigor. This is a extremely important element in commercial cattle breeding today with the extra pounds that can be had for just using the right bull. Hybrid vigor can also be had within the same breed by choosing outcross genetics. Without papers, you have to rely on your memory or your breeders memory 3 or 4 years later. Conversely, buying closely related bulls results in line- or inbreeding and the weaker, unhealthier calves that can result.

Registered bulls have EPD's (most breeds). More and more commercial cattlemen are using EPDs to monitor a bulls performance and to choose their next bull.

Registered bulls are also a testament to the breeders integrity. Discrepancies in breeding and performance records tend to show up in Association offices. Many Associations also monitor breeders by spot checking pedigrees by DNA testing.

Breed Associations are also there to set guidelines for the sale and settling of disputes.

Yes, it can be expensive registered bulls, about $50.00 av I think; a cost born by the breeder.

Personally, I think it is in the interest of every commercial cattleman to demand the registration papers on every bull. Many hybrid bulls are also now registered for the same reasons cited above.

Initially papers costs more than a bottle of whiskey but you may benefit more down the road when you sell your calves.