More Bull

[Muttley]

I would consider myself a low profile breeder. But to me success is being able to sell year after year to the same people, and to see them bring other customers to my sale or yard each year with them. So what if I'm not the high seller. We quite often see those high sellers at the sales but they do not tell us about all the culls or average bulls still at home. When I buy bulls I like to see the dam, and other brothers as well. I start looking now for my needs for next year so that I can follow the progress of the ones I am intersested in.

[gopher]

pandiana - We always purchase registered bulls, however we normally sell all our calves so it hasn't been a problem buying from the same outfit. We do use a different breed of bull now and then just to keep the hybrid vigor strong.
I read the response from muttley and agree with his method of selling bulls - I guess it all boils down to having trust in each other.

[cowman]

I am not against registering bulls, but I do believe some of the breed organizations have gotten a little costly. What does membership cost and registration cost? How much does it add onto the price of that bull?
I remember a large Charlais breeder in Alberta who got in a lot of trouble for selling bulls without registration papers. He printed up 5 generation sheets but he figured most commercial guys couldn't really care if they had a registration paper. And he was very successful at it until the Charlais association came down hard on him. I know another breeder who gave you a choice...papers or a bottle of rye! He said there was a lot more interest in the rye than the papers!
With an established, honest breeder are papers necessary for the commercial market? I guess we all know that a lot of bulls sell with no papers.

[Muttley]

I sell a few purebred and hybred bulls each year. Theses are mostly from purbred cows that did not get papered as calves or from cows that may carry another breed. We always use registered bulls as sires. I have never had a problem and quite often get requests for these bulls versus the papered ones.
The most important thing when doing this is to tell the customer everything I know about the history of dam and sire. There is many purbred sires out there of every breed that can be registered but could have been sired by another breed. The breed ass. only request DNA samples for bulls going to be use for registering calves so if the neighbors bull came a visiting and you did not know it you may have unknown to yourself registered a calf that was not pure.
A few years ago we purchased a cow from a respected sale and sold many offspring from her including a female. When one bull needed to be blood typed for parent identification it was determined that the wrong sire was listed on the cow and of course all the progency as well. We were lucky it was of the same breed but had this been from another breed I could have been in for a real battle.

[pandiana]

According to my understanding, it is against the law (Livestock Pedigree Act) to sell a bull as a purebred without registrations papers. In other words, if its sold as Angus, Gelbvieh or Charolais its' registered, otherwise its just a bull.

Why buy a registered bull?

Benefits of knowing the pedigree. Gopher mentioned hybrid vigor. This is a extremely important element in commercial cattle breeding today with the extra pounds that can be had for just using the right bull. Hybrid vigor can also be had within the same breed by choosing outcross genetics. Without papers, you have to rely on your memory or your breeders memory 3 or 4 years later. Conversely, buying closely related bulls results in line- or inbreeding and the weaker, unhealthier calves that can result.

Registered bulls have EPD's (most breeds). More and more commercial cattlemen are using EPDs to monitor a bulls performance and to choose their next bull.

Registered bulls are also a testament to the breeders integrity. Discrepancies in breeding and performance records tend to show up in Association offices. Many Associations also monitor breeders by spot checking pedigrees by DNA testing.

Breed Associations are also there to set guidelines for the sale and settling of disputes.

Yes, it can be expensive registered bulls, about $50.00 av I think; a cost born by the breeder.

Personally, I think it is in the interest of every commercial cattleman to demand the registration papers on every bull. Many hybrid bulls are also now registered for the same reasons cited above.

Initially papers costs more than a bottle of whiskey but you may benefit more down the road when you sell your calves.

[cowman]

Well pandiana I won't get into a big argument about this but actually "line breeding" can be a good thing!Alot of the top "purebred bulls" are line bred. I remember a certain test center where the top 5 performing bulls were line bred.
Does $50 take into account your yearly membership? $100 spread over 75 animals registered is not a big deal but over 10 animals it becomes important. As you can guess I've been out of this game for a long time...I think when it got over $25 I quit! By the way I think it was$8 for an animal under 6 mon. of age!

[gopher]

Another important reason to ask for registration papers is the fact that insurance companies will not insure that bull without a copy of the certificate.

[cowman]

Gopher: do you insure a commercial bull? I'm not trying to be ignorant here, I've just never heard of this?

[gopher]

cowman - We only use registered purebred bulls.

[Muttley]

It's my understanding that purebred does not mean that it is registered. We have cows that are pure Angus, we know this to be a fact as we have raised all of them on our farm. We do not buy cows that are said to be pure then use them to raise bulls.
When I sell a bull that is from a pure cow it is sold as a commercial bull from a registered sire and a dam that is pure Angus. When we sell a bull that has a cross in it we say it is hybred.
My understanding of the livestock act is that we can do this as long as we make sure the owner or bidder knows that the said animal is not able to be registered.
In our case the EPD'S do come into play by way of the sire. One must remember EPD'S are a guide line to follow and when you look at them make carefull attention to the accuracy. If you buy a bull or use semen on a young unproven sire his accuracy will be very low. You may find that it is all together different on this bull as he gets more progency. Again a good reason to look at his parents EPD'S