More Bull

[cowman]

Well pandiana I won't get into a big argument about this but actually "line breeding" can be a good thing!Alot of the top "purebred bulls" are line bred. I remember a certain test center where the top 5 performing bulls were line bred.
Does $50 take into account your yearly membership? $100 spread over 75 animals registered is not a big deal but over 10 animals it becomes important. As you can guess I've been out of this game for a long time...I think when it got over $25 I quit! By the way I think it was$8 for an animal under 6 mon. of age!

[gopher]

Another important reason to ask for registration papers is the fact that insurance companies will not insure that bull without a copy of the certificate.

[cowman]

Gopher: do you insure a commercial bull? I'm not trying to be ignorant here, I've just never heard of this?

[gopher]

cowman - We only use registered purebred bulls.

[Muttley]

It's my understanding that purebred does not mean that it is registered. We have cows that are pure Angus, we know this to be a fact as we have raised all of them on our farm. We do not buy cows that are said to be pure then use them to raise bulls.
When I sell a bull that is from a pure cow it is sold as a commercial bull from a registered sire and a dam that is pure Angus. When we sell a bull that has a cross in it we say it is hybred.
My understanding of the livestock act is that we can do this as long as we make sure the owner or bidder knows that the said animal is not able to be registered.
In our case the EPD'S do come into play by way of the sire. One must remember EPD'S are a guide line to follow and when you look at them make carefull attention to the accuracy. If you buy a bull or use semen on a young unproven sire his accuracy will be very low. You may find that it is all together different on this bull as he gets more progency. Again a good reason to look at his parents EPD'S

[cowman]

Gopher:How much does it cost to insure a bull? Back in the 70's I bought a cow for a horrific price($5000) and I insured her. I think the premium was 4% or $200/yr. I dropped the policy after one year. As an aside this was the cheapest cow I ever bought. Her first calf sold for $3800 and she went on to produce until 15 yrs. old. She has a lot of descendents in my herd.

[pandiana]

cowman, no argument. I agree with you. Line-breeding is one more important tool that is used by purebred breeders to 'improve' livestock. More accurately, it is used to improve and reinforce certain traits that are currently of economic importance. Done carefully, line breeding is useful, but the downside is that it also can reinforce 'bad' traits and weaknesses. So for every exceptionally fine animal showing the traits selected for, the purebred breeder may have to cull an exceptionally poor one. This is one reason hybrid vigor works. Weak or defective genes are 'complemented' by genes from an animal which is less likely to have this defect. Overall, crossbred animals live longer and are healthier than purebred animals.

[pandiana]

Actually, I threw out the $50.00 figure as an average. Some breed associations charge less., some more. And yes, if you register younger you can frequently pay less but you are also more likely to register animals that will go on to be culled. That $50.00 would also include a transfer fee. In other words, the calf may be registered in the breeders name and when sold, must be transfered into the new owners name. An no, this figure does not include membership which could be another $50.00 or more annually.

[pandiana]

Muttley, I do not have the Livestock Act in front of me but I do believe I am correct in my interpretation. In fact I have been told that if an animal, say a bull, is sold at auction as a purebred, they buyer can demand the registration papers. I've often wondered if this was correct. Maybe Sean McGrath can add something to this discussion.

[smcgrath76]

This has been an interesting discussion to say the least.
Currently several Canadian breeds have made a move towards a whole herd reporting system. This means that the fee schedule is based on cows in production, rather than calves. In these programs, the cost typically is $20 per cow. This will include a registration for the calf in that production year, a transfer for the calf and a transfer for the female in the year she is enrolled. More importantly it allows the breeder to participate in the breed's performance program.
The breeds which are not on a whole herd system typically have a graduated fee schedule depending upon the age of the calf when it is registered. The highest price I have seen for a registration under this system is $100, for a calf over 18 months of age.
While the animal pedigree act is fairly clear, that an animal cannot be sold as purebred without papers, it is difficult to enforce, and relies more on breeder integrity than the strong arm of the law. If a papered animal is sold (even for slaughter) the buyer can demand that the paper be transferred. The act also forbids pricing a bull with and without the papers (eg: he's $1500 or $1250 without the papers) and/or charging the buyer for the transfer.
No matter what type of sire (purebred, crossbred, etc.) you choose, the information you use to make your decision is paramount. The theory is that good information should provide you a better opportunity to select the right bull. This is the driving force behind complete herd reporting, as we can track fertility, growth and carcass traits and remove bias due to the entire herd being reported. Probably the greatest strength of a breed association is the ability to combine data from herds in order to evaluate the true genetic merit of an animal rather than how it was fed.
My personal thoughts on the use of any sire on our cows at home (commercial or purebred): I want all the data I can get and prefer EPDs over ranks and indexes and if a purebred is not good enough to register and transfer, then it is not good enough for me to buy.

[cowman]

Thank you for all that information. I think one of the great things about the cattle business is there are so many different ideas about how to raise cattle. The bottom line is what works best for you.