Cattle ID and traceability ----Australia update

[SADIE]

gf----I love your comments. I know I am on the right track when you disagree.

"there we stood 3 against 10,000 the toughest 3 we ever fought in our lives"

You problem with the ketchum---It must be you and poor application technique.

Every Cattlemen witness and there was many condemned the current RFID Plastic tag---It is on trial and has to go.

The Ketchum tag worked in the 50,s 60,s 70,s and up till today with a very very very high success rate.

[per]

No one likes the heavy hand of Big Brother flexing his muscle. Large fines and community pasture surveillance is just going too far imho. Near 100% at point of changing hands is another issue and is at least in reach of doable. About a third of my cows have metal Ketchum tags which in my herd have a similar retention rate as a dangle. Both good but some get ripped off in the bush. I would much rather an electronic system than paper and either way think some sort of system is probably necessary and most likely unavoidable so lets figure it out and make it user friendly. The State of Chiwawa(sp) in Mexico has a metal tag system that does work and was promoted and designed by the producers.

[Happytrails]

Good discussion people. A couple of points.
1. There has been some question about the amount of info contained in a RFID tag. There is no info except for the tag number. Everything else such as herd of origin, birth date, etc. must be associated with the tag # in a data base. That being the case, a metal tag has the same information capacity as the RFID.

2. About the disadvantage that the metal tag cannot be read electronically when cattle are sold. Maybe we should question the the rationale for reading ID tags every time cattle move. We will read millions of tags on perfectly healthy cattle. Why not just read the tags when there is an issue? As I have said before, most cattle have had either 2 or three owners at slaughter. If they carry the herd of origin ID tag then we instantly know the herd of origin and of course the current owner. If there is a backgrounder between there won't be many who did business with both. That was the way the original ID tagging program was sold to me and I think it is still valid. Movement tracking by ID tag scanning is a different animal and I think being promoted for different reasons than animal health. HT

[grassfarmer]

Sadie - we didn't have a particular problem with loss of ketchum tags - just pointing out that neither the old metal tag or the EID tag are 100%. There is room for error in application of both leading to higher tag loss for sure.
To claim the metal tag is a no loss system compared to the EID is BS - if it isn't show us the figures to back your claim.

HT, You really don't have a clue what would be workable in the case of a major disease breakout do you?
You say "If they carry the herd of origin ID tag then we instantly know the herd of origin and of course the current owner. If there is a backgrounder between there won't be many who did business with both."
That last sentence just says it all - kind of like pinning the tail on the donkey except with cattle. How many weeks of speculative guesswork would it take? In the meantime the animal in question had effectively contaminated countless others because you couldn't track it's movements or that of it's cohorts.

I guess some folks just won't believe it until they see for themselves.
I nominate HT to do the media work on behalf of cattle producers if the day comes that millions of animals might have to be destroyed and incinerated because of negligence in planning a workable system.
Don't say it can't happen because it can and has.

[per]

Grassfarmer is correct about the speed of spread of a communicable disease. It take 2 or 3 days to spread to an uncontainable size given a FM or similar disease. Whatever system is used needs to be at least at the speed of that commerce.

[SADIE]

per--good comment on the tag in that state of Mexico. Is a sample on that web-site or have if I give email could you send a picture.

Per--great comment on producers working to find a tag that works. Hopefully a process like this is in the works now.

Off topic but want to bring point out here.

This is what the huge group of landowners did (SAPL) Sask. when we organized and joined up with (MPLA) Manitoba and together this huge group sat down with the Pipeline company and overcame the regulator (NEB) and helped construct and build the new Alberta Clipper that is now in the ground. These landowners have seen 50 years of poor construction, rotten pipes and trying to farm over the pipes we were part of change. That movement helped get this movement to Alberta and the helped surface the huge National movement of CAEPLA--www.CAEPLA.com

Working with this farmers/landowners have taught others how to lobby, how the government of Canada really functions--how to look at things differently to obtain constructive results.

Maybe someof have attended CAEPLA meetings now over potential power line corridors in the Daysland, Hanna areas of Alberta that have recently happened.

[SADIE]

GF--First closing comment at the tribunal hearing--it is on record.

Permanent ID has to be obtained first on the boving animal or bison before traceability can be reached.

There is not an ID tht is placed on the bovine ear that can achieve 100% because an ear can be "cut off"

Only permanet ID to date is the Brand, brisket tag (99.9%). What about the rumen bolus???can we look at that.

The only ID that has the track record of being high% retention on the bovine ear is the Ketchum # 2 CURLOCK metal tag.

Would Tribunal/CFIA/ CCIA relook at the useage of the KETCHUM CURL-LOC #2 which was petitioned with vast numbers of signatures from cow-calf producers and precented to CCIA 2005-06 07 timeline.

Can RFID data be placed on the Ketchum Curl-Loc #2 at this time? It the RFID data results in a "BIG GOB" this will cause snagging tearing ripping concerns.

Next thread to GF will have case after case after case of producers (no names) now coming forward with faulty RFID data which was part of the evidence.

[grassfarmer]

Sadie,
Have you got proven numbers on tag loss with either the RFID tags or the Ketchums? not heresay from groups of producers on either side of the fence but the accepted retention figures on an industry wide basis?

You say permanent ID has to be obtained before traceability can be reached. How do you think other countries manage? The ones that have run credible traceability for many years?

[kato]

I have worked at a vet clinic where we implanted cats dogs and horses with microchips that contained exactly the amount of information contained on an ear tag. These microchips were small enough to put through a 16 gauge hypodermic needle. They were well below the size of a Ketchum tag. I think the closest description would be approximately the size of one Synovex pellet.

Something that small must be able to be attached to a cow's ear without being inside something that can snag.

Whether these type of chips can be read from any distance is the million dollar question. We had to get pretty close to read them. I don't know that much about what technology is actually available, but the way things progress so fast, there may well be more advanced chips available that can be both small and powerful.

Implanting directly into the animal is not perfect though. The microchips can migrate.

[SADIE]

gf

I do have proven number of tag loss on tags.

You were notified to when the hearing was GF. Why didn't you show up and you would have seen the evidence provided under oath from expert witnesses.

CFIA had only one witness.

This hearing has brought this whole concept to the forefront so that there is more discussion and relooking at this problem.

Time to tend to haying operations.