Cattle ID and traceability ----Australia update

[SADIE]

3 provinces in Australia---Only one is manditory Cattle Id and traceability. They use Allflex RFID only---no other tags or taggers allowed. Have problems with retention there also.

-Infor came while working with new tech support personnel hired by CCIA on phone from Waterloo Ontario. Has got samples now of Faulty male backs from numerous cow-herds across western Canada.---Ketchum has approached his group ---re-looking at Ketchum #2 curl-lock with possible RFID data ---early stages and will meet this fall.

Just to think about while haying

[per]

Australia has States not Provinces. Semantics for sure but I like the correct name.

You might be interested in some of the speakers from the International Livestock Identification Association conference recently held in Calgary.

http://www.internationallivestockid.com/conferences/sessions.htm

[SADIE]

Thankyou Per

I will look into it. Presently working with correspondence with Prime Minister office as well as opposition party offices.

Upcoming hearing still set in Dauphin Manitoba on Tues Aug 10 court house.

Failure to de-register nos with administrator. Fine $500.00 per load on 4 loads. Producer is attending and stating facts as it is. Will not pay the fine. The fine is in his name while the opertion is in company name. Research to date ---cannot go after $ account ---have to go after assets--will take months. Same as my case. This whole issue is going to get political at the highest level in Canada. He is asking his neighbours to show up. Same as the hearing in Swift Current---level the playing field---fill the court-room with bodies and go for a "beer" after.

Quasijurisidiciton (sp) not a court of queens bench---there is a difference.

Federal election next year correct??

[Happytrails]

Per. You didn't say why we might be interested in the ID conference speakers. Or was that another papal suggestion? Seriously, the speakers at that conference had, by association, an agenda. Some of us buy in, others don't. I still say it is a hoax and a scam to regulate ID tag scanning. We have been doing livestock movement tracking for a century. If the markets want ID tag scanning they will get it. If it is regulated the value will be near 0.
Sadie. Keep it up. We can't become serfs without a fight. HT

[per]

Happytrails, I suggest both sides of the conversation would be interested in the information from the speakers of the conference. Information and knowledge is power. I can't think of anyone no matter where they stand not being behind Sadie. Regs and bureaucracy gone crazy must be challenged.

[SADIE]

per---where you at this conference in Calgary.

Have you been "down under--Australia" and seen their system first hand?

Looked at website: Dr. David Fly ID in New Mexico---Helped me understand what forms are out there.

Is the technology trying to put too much data on RFID that it is making a cumbersome (Overweight) component on the tag?

All cattlemen on this web-site trying to survive in this industry have become
mechanic,welder,veterinarian,accountant,and others. The path that I hope I initiated is to help producers become their own "defence lawyers" if/when is needed. Will always be willing to share this experience.

[per]

Sadie, I was in Calgary and although I have been in Australia that experience predates this topic. You are exactly correct that if a smooth system was to come into place the dinosaur current rfid tag would have to disappear for something that can't be lost. Not sure how much info any one individual would need on a tag but reading it amongst other tags at the speed of what ever is happening to that animal in a group or not is the passive rfid's challenge.

I have mixed feelings about traceability and tracking. I live in the same realities as any other cattleman in this country. A magic wand is needed to fix the heavy hand of the CFIA. Thank you for helping to wave that wand.

[SADIE]

Per--At the tribunal ---closing arguments ---one had to give constructive critism or suggest a solution. Personnelly I as a cattlemen and former veterinarian I wanted individual animal ID. I wanted to use that as a management tool in my own herd. This is why I was one of the first to put them in the cow-herd back in 2005. I still want a permanent individual animal ID so I am back to the Ketchum #2 curl-lock metal tag.

The whole trial "Canadian Agriculture Review Tribunal" ----another form of REGULATORY CAPTURE.

CFIA doesn't like media especially being showed off as being a "bully" THis story caught tons of media and now they are calling again for results.

CFIA personnel---the three of them where just shaking in that hearing. The head Vet was just about "bursting into tears" ---the message is out there a cattleman is ready to challange this
Bullshit.

[grassfarmer]

You overlooked me per. I am not behind Sadie's campaign. I think it is backward looking and is tackling an insignificant issue. Getting your knickers in a knot over a $3 tag and a little inventory management is ridiculous when cattle producers are going to the wall because they are getting several hundred dollars per animal less for their animals than they be should due to packer and retailer profiteering.

On the actual tag isue - ketchums are by no means infallible either. We used thousands over the years and lost a % just like anything else. We had a run of 100 tags once that were bent at the wrong angle - every one of them had to be adjusted with pliers before we could apply them. I think by advocating these tags you risk moving away from the electronic reading and instant computer recording database. That would be a big mistake. Whether you like it or not traceability will come and with the metal tags you might just finish up having to read every tag manually and recording with a paper system like they have in Europe. Big mistake - be careful what you wish for.

I think you need to look at the bigger picture re CFIA - having their staff upset in court is hardly a victory in the battle, never mind winning the war. I don't think CFIA should be allowed to dictate Canada's trade policy as they allegedly did over BSE testing but let's not kid ourselves CFIA isn't a huge mafia type organisation with it's own agenda that is beyond reproach of Government. It is a Government agency and as such is following the mandate of said Government and their corporate bed partners. It's funny how many ranchers believe that CFIA is the bad guy yet turn around and vote Conservative every election - time to wake up folks!

[kato]

I've never figured out that voting thing either.

As for CFIA being the bad guy, I'm not so sure it's that as much as cattle producers are starting to feel that this whole traceability/tracking/enforcement thing is getting out of their control. It seems to be taking on a life of it's own, and going off in directions that weren't part of the plan when it all got started. Some consultations and input from producers along the way would have made a big difference IMHO.

Maybe my memory is getting foggy, but when BSE first hit, I was working at a vet clinic, and the guys at the CFIA were excellent to work with. And there were assurances all over the place that the CCIA was an independent agency, producer driven, and therefore would be accountable, and take producer opinion into consideration. Lately there are starting to be subtle changes here and there that most of us did not sign on for, and I think a lot of people are taking offense to it.

I think ID is a good thing. I think everyone should really know where their cattle are, and who is who in their herd. I also think that if these tags can track without adding costs and a huge burden of regulation onto those who can afford it the least, then by all means go for it.

But that being said, I don't remember anyone saying back in 2003 that there would be inspectors waiting at community pastures monitoring cattle that were not even being sold, and handing out fines based on a zero tolerance policy working with a less than 80% tag retention rate.

Anybody here care to guess how much it costs to ship three inspectors out to a pasture to spend a day watching cattle unload? At a low estimate of $22.00 an hour, (and I'm pretty sure they make more than that) it would be well over $500.00. Not cheap. Not the best use of government funds, either, especially when there are hundreds of loads of uninspected meat being brought in from the U.S. every week.

A zero tolerance policy can only fairly be used if there is a zero tag loss rate. Any other application of it is a poor use of resources. There are much more important things to be doing with our tax money.

[SADIE]

gf----I love your comments. I know I am on the right track when you disagree.

"there we stood 3 against 10,000 the toughest 3 we ever fought in our lives"

You problem with the ketchum---It must be you and poor application technique.

Every Cattlemen witness and there was many condemned the current RFID Plastic tag---It is on trial and has to go.

The Ketchum tag worked in the 50,s 60,s 70,s and up till today with a very very very high success rate.

[per]

No one likes the heavy hand of Big Brother flexing his muscle. Large fines and community pasture surveillance is just going too far imho. Near 100% at point of changing hands is another issue and is at least in reach of doable. About a third of my cows have metal Ketchum tags which in my herd have a similar retention rate as a dangle. Both good but some get ripped off in the bush. I would much rather an electronic system than paper and either way think some sort of system is probably necessary and most likely unavoidable so lets figure it out and make it user friendly. The State of Chiwawa(sp) in Mexico has a metal tag system that does work and was promoted and designed by the producers.

[Happytrails]

Good discussion people. A couple of points.
1. There has been some question about the amount of info contained in a RFID tag. There is no info except for the tag number. Everything else such as herd of origin, birth date, etc. must be associated with the tag # in a data base. That being the case, a metal tag has the same information capacity as the RFID.

2. About the disadvantage that the metal tag cannot be read electronically when cattle are sold. Maybe we should question the the rationale for reading ID tags every time cattle move. We will read millions of tags on perfectly healthy cattle. Why not just read the tags when there is an issue? As I have said before, most cattle have had either 2 or three owners at slaughter. If they carry the herd of origin ID tag then we instantly know the herd of origin and of course the current owner. If there is a backgrounder between there won't be many who did business with both. That was the way the original ID tagging program was sold to me and I think it is still valid. Movement tracking by ID tag scanning is a different animal and I think being promoted for different reasons than animal health. HT

[grassfarmer]

Sadie - we didn't have a particular problem with loss of ketchum tags - just pointing out that neither the old metal tag or the EID tag are 100%. There is room for error in application of both leading to higher tag loss for sure.
To claim the metal tag is a no loss system compared to the EID is BS - if it isn't show us the figures to back your claim.

HT, You really don't have a clue what would be workable in the case of a major disease breakout do you?
You say "If they carry the herd of origin ID tag then we instantly know the herd of origin and of course the current owner. If there is a backgrounder between there won't be many who did business with both."
That last sentence just says it all - kind of like pinning the tail on the donkey except with cattle. How many weeks of speculative guesswork would it take? In the meantime the animal in question had effectively contaminated countless others because you couldn't track it's movements or that of it's cohorts.

I guess some folks just won't believe it until they see for themselves.
I nominate HT to do the media work on behalf of cattle producers if the day comes that millions of animals might have to be destroyed and incinerated because of negligence in planning a workable system.
Don't say it can't happen because it can and has.

[per]

Grassfarmer is correct about the speed of spread of a communicable disease. It take 2 or 3 days to spread to an uncontainable size given a FM or similar disease. Whatever system is used needs to be at least at the speed of that commerce.