Cattle ID and traceability ----Australia update

[Happytrails]

@ sagewood. I presume that you are not one of us by the tone of your advice. One of my favorite quotes is "the smallest deed is worth more than the greatest intention." The promoters of the traceability proposal are, no doubt, mostly well intentioned. The deed they haven't done is the due diligence of a cost/benefit analysis to decide whether it is good or bad for the industry. Instead what we are getting is a top down campaign to entrench a program that nobody asked for. I am all for promoting our product, record keeping and traceability. Just let the market ask for it and set the value.
In reply to your point a that other occupations are governed I would point out that they are mostly self-governed. Since the advent of ALMA our ability to self govern is diminished. Some of us want it back.
Kato, keep it up and things are getting better. We have the healthiest cattle herd in the world and need to tell that story. If some of my cattle got to the slaughter plant with my ID tags I would be proud to have that information at the meat counter. I just hate the thought of trying to scan 4000 freshly weaned calves at the auction market on a snowy day. For a whole bunch of reasons. HT

[grassfarmer]

HT, "We have the healthiest cattle herd in the world" Says who?? the same guys that say we have the "best beef in the world"?? Saying it doesn't necessarily make it so.

What are your views on FMD vaccination and do you know what the policy would be with regard to that if we had an outbreak?

[sagewood]

HT, I am not sure what your comment means that I am 'not one of you'--I am a cattle person, have been for over 38 years--and like you, I have always been proud of my product and am not afraid of any competition. Like K. I keep very exacting records on cows/calves and bulls; have done this from my first cows, even before it was a popular or necessary thing to do. This spring, most of my calves that were fed out and traced went AAA and the poorest ones were AA--so I know that I am doing something right with my program.

I am going to date myself here, but I am old enough to remember when foot and mouth disease hit Saskatchewan. The government people stepped up and as you say forced a 'top down' program on the cattle people and eradicated FMD and in 9 months, the market was open for Sask. cattle again. Cars coming in and out of towns and cities had to drive through sterilizing bath; veterinarians did not set foot on farms and ranches that were not contaminated--people all walked through foot baths on their own places and changed boots to leave their place or go to town in order not to track it onto their land. My neighbors lost their herd to the FMD and at the time it happened, I recall them saying they had $13 in the bank and they did not know what they were going to do without the cattle. They got compensation money for their cattle which got them set up again and then went on to have a new and good producing herd. Now I am not one to want government hand outs, but that is what happened at that time and in that place. Unless we continue to keep good vigilance on our herd health we will have another market corrupting event similar to BSE . We absolutely have to trace our cattle and be able to prove their health and track their tenderness etc. etc. and in so doing improve our herds. If the RFID traceback is coming top down, so be it. The tags will improve and become cheaper as more of us use them--the readers will also improve until we have a system that is as easy to use as sitting in front of our computer and watching the information flow in--it will come, but not if we turn our backs on traceability. If it takes a little more work on my part, I will pay that price to be able to get top dollar for my calves--whatever that top price may be in any given year.

[sagewood]

Okay folks, just doing more reading here and I would like you all to 'Goggle' this and have a read through it--positively frightening and this is what we in the industry are going to be faced with more and more as these activists ply their trade. I cannot give you a link--not so good at that sort of thing, but Goggle "Activists Share Anti-Agriculture Agenda at Conferences' It should take you to 'Cattlenetwork, The Source for Cattle News'. I see the article is reprinted in hog news and a few others. I hope you can get to read this article--we have no idea who or what we are dealing with...

[Happytrails]

Sagewood. Glad to hear you are one of us and probably one of the better ones. I think you and I would agree on the proactive measures that would be needed if we had a virulent disease outbreak. What we don't agree on is the value of scanning millions of healthy cattle when there isn't. In my view, mandatory ID tag scanning will kill the auction marts outright, create a pool of undocumented cattle and therefore a black market, and make the smaller cow/calf producers an endangered group. Pretty big costs for ??? benefit.
To change gears just a little, I have read where the CCA is trying to get BIXS working. What makes the traceability promoters think that we can mandate something that isn't even proven experimentally? HT

[SADIE]

Sagewood---First a reply to your first response on this thread. Record keeping and replacing the occasional RFID tag.

My recent case brought forward the problem that it isn't the occasional RFID eartag that needs replacing. We need a better ID, with better retention to proceed down this path of traceability and scanning.

Those of you that have noticed a "Higher RFID loss". Do what many others are presently doing and I will list the location and % losses on this thread.

PH: Paul Lalonde or email Plaronde@canadaid.ca. 519-844-7598. He wants those faulty tags. He has now been with CCIA for just over a year. He has been in the industry for 15 years, He has worked for a couple of tagging companies and knows their POD. This man wants those faulty tags before you contact the company and get the "replacements". The companies have grabbed these tags from producers up till now, replacing them tossing some tags and new pliers and asking the producer to "Keep quiet".


If you have had a higher than normal loss this year % when those animals hit the shute this fall check the backs of the RFID buttons. The most common finding is the Male buttons break down right in the centre. As time progresses (another 6 months) they break off (pro-farmer stated before) in pie shapes. Soon by the law of gravity the RFID fronts just fall out the front of the ear.

This Male back break off has now been reported with all 6 brands of RFID tag companies.

The other main "breakdown" is with the AllFLEX system and the round yellow RFID circle will seperate from the Black stud. The yellow circle falls off leaving the Black stud left in the ear.

The third break-down is the narrow stems that all RFID posses. The strongest stem is the Dextron RFID.

Cases that have come in with excellent herd records. Here are a few. There are now many reports coming in from across western Canada.

1)Maclean Sask Rancher. Excellent records. 96 cow herd.---Year 2 lost 16 RFID in spring & fall lost another 15 RFID (different animals). He has totally removed the rest of the RFID tags and are now in Waterloo Ontario with Paul Lalonde.

2)Chaplin Sask Rancher. Tagged 165 Cows tagged and in one year lost or replaced 70 tags. Has sample of male backs with breaks in center. Refused to give (allflex rep) the faulty buttons ---got 100 new RFID tags and pliers but has got those defaults to Waterloo Ontario.

3)Wakaw area rancher.---Raylfex---Lost majority of 120 RFIDS within 1.5 years because broken backs.

4)Fairview College Cattle herd---Great records with Dr. Art Shatz. Lost entire RFID tags in cow-herd between year 2-4. Great pictures with backs "pied off" leaving just the RFID fronts.

Since the May 20 Western Producer article and now the other articles cattlemen with these experiences now have an avenue to send their faulty RFID tags.

Everyone of the above producers first contacted the tag manufacturer before this "Hearing Case" and was told that they were not applying these tags properly.

The hearing on June 15 we asked for a better improved higher retention RFID tag well tested in Canadian Cattle herds under Canadian Conditions when temps can go from 40 above to 40 below and withstand the UV light.

The RFID tag that we presently have presently "appears" to have short term retention only at this time.

Owning and operating two veterinary practices for 20 years which specialized in Beef Cow-calf practice many brands of eartags were sold. You heard complaints quickly. My practice years were from 76-96. Allflex system had a large market on animal herd ID tags. The same problems were found with the Male backs or the stems on those tags. Ranchers switched to the other tags without the PLastic Circle backs---With slight improvement.

Today I am in contact with my colleagues still in practice that sell RFID eartags. The complaints on retention are "esculating steadily". Some practices have already discontinued and refuse to sell these RFID eartags. I respect those that have gone this route. "their comments are we will not sell a product that we cannot stand behind".

[per]

Sadie wrote-

My recent case brought forward the problem that it isn't the occasional RFID eartag that needs replacing. We need a better ID, with better retention to proceed down this path of traceability and scanning.

Logistics aside Sadie, are you in favor of a traceability system and should it be mandatory?

[sagewood]

Sadie, I did not know that some people were having such high retention failures as those you described. For my part, I have had excellent luck with the RFID tags. I have had the odd one disappear and have had the odd calf pull one completely out of their ear, either leaving a hole or ripping the ear, but have tags in cows that I shipped to market after wearing their tags for 3 - 4 years and the tags were still in good shape and very readable.

As per the questions about scanning all the healthy cattle, I can see that this could most certainly be done away with. If a sick animal turns up, then it can be traced, assuming that the i.d. tag is still in place, but at what point do we not scan and know that the tag is missing--from the ranch to the auction, from the auction to the feed lot, from feed lot to slaughter? If the tag is not there at the third destination, how is that animal tracked back to the herd of origin or the feed lot or where ever the disease may have been contracted?

I do agree that the small ranchers are a threatened species--many of my neighbours who are younger than me have given up the cattle business--the days of grazing a little pasture and the head lands are pretty much coming to an end I fear.

The activist article that I suggested that you all have a look at through Goggle was meant to let you all know that even though traceability is a concern for everyone right now, when those activists who were described in the article get rolling, the folks at PETA and traceability will seem like small potatoes compared to what we will have to protect our industry against.

[kato]

I started a new thread with that link. Sagewood, to post a link, just go to the page you want to link, click on the address up at the top and make it turn blue, then press Control & the letter C at the same time. Then go to where you want to post it, and press Control & the letter P at the same time. Voila! Copy and paste.

Anyway, back to the topic. I think that our problem with this whole tracking thing is that it's still a work in progress. The tags haven't been perfected to a high enough standard, there is still no way to track without "impeding commerce", it's costing money to do it, and we have yet to see one slim dime of extra return for our efforts. And with all of that, people are being handed out fines for non compliance. If there was some common sense being demonstrated by the now overzealous bureaucrats, instead of arbitrary fines on animals that are not even being sold, this would not be an issue.

First you set up the system. Get it running smoothly. Make it worth the effort. Make an allowance for unintentional errors. AKA use some common sense. Then, if someone tries to obviously pull a fast one, hand out a fine.

You don't design a tracking system as complicated as this could turn out to be, and then start prosecuting people before it's even functioning properly. The bottom line is that is has to work, and work smoothly.

Personally, I think the day FMD hit's the U.S. that the rules will suddenly change on this disease. You will not see piles of burning carcasses in a Nebraska feedlot. It just won't happen. Instead, you will see the significance of this disease drop off the political radar. It's not harmful to humans, it has a vaccine, and it's not always fatal to animals either, from what I understand. And it's all over the world already. Does anyone know the history of how this became such a trade barrier? Maybe it was a political move in the first place, which would mean the stigma of it could also be removed by a political move.

[sagewood]

Kato, many thanks for the computer lesson. I will give this a try for sure. I will watch for conversations on the new topic that you started with the activists.

Re the FMD thing, I could not agree more--political--always was as far as I was concerned and the U.S. will not destroy carcasses--their preferred method of dealing with disease to date is to either try to vaccinate it away, or failing that the old 'shoot, shovel and shut up' theory always works for them. The idea that Canadians have used was to eradicate the offending animals and start fresh, thus the shortened time frame to get back to market. Mind you many things have changed in the past 7 years since BSE.

[SADIE]

per

From the start I was and am in favor of individual animal ID. I wanted this as a herd management tool in my own herd. When RFID became available I thought there was a chance these would work. ID my cow-herd in 2005 and buy all my replacement bred females from one source with RFID coming in with them.

Traceability back to my farm-gate I was ready for that also. Our product we sell all steers to feedlots and I wanted data back on them. All heifers are sold as replacement females in the spring "going to grass".

Traceability when animals change ownership I was/am fully in favor of that also and will keep applying RFID "short-term tags" as close to the date they leave the premise of origin as possible. Mandatory "yes".

Traceability when they are going to PFRA pasture "not changing ownership" or for "every new Blade of grass they eat"--quoted in the cattleman by a reputable cattleman from Youngstown Alberta. I am not in favor of that at all. Mandatory "No"

Seeing huge tax $$$ being spent on scanners going into auction markets and now at PFRA pastures----I see at this time a total waste of $$$ when the retention problem is as huge as it is ---a real problem.

Sagewood--my time in this industry goes back also to when FMD hit Saskatchewan. In my years of beef cow-calf veterinary practice I had great group of forward thinking producers from East Central Alberta who would always demand to try new things like Vaccinations, ear-tags and other products first. But when there is a "flaw" or "default" in the system or program----Stop using that product. Don't continue to down the path until the system or flaw is corrected.

Can the Ketchum Curl-lock # 2 with RFID data be an improved animal ID with higher-retention? Can it have higher retention and also be a usable tool for the scanners at auction markets or in herd management ??

Per---The tag you mentioned that the state in Mexico developed. Is it RFID compatable? Can you give me a link or contact on that product?

[per]

Sadie I will have to dig through my notes to find an answer. I want to say no but I know they kept track of when they changed hands but I think it is an input system. I will get back to you. I am haying and playing too much lately.

[per]

Here is a link to his presentation. It looses something without the speaker.

http://www.internationallivestockid.com/files/Session-01-Ramirez.pdf

[Happytrails]

Must be getting close to a record for a thread Sadie...good going! I want to add a couple of replies.
To defend the statement that our cowherd is the healthiest in the world one only has to consider the environment they live in. They spend every night of the year under the stars and survive a yearly temperature range of at least 80 C. The sick ones are dead, the live ones are healthy.
Sagewood, I think you are close to the real reason that the authorities are pushing the scanning bluff when you ask how we know if cattle are ID tagged. The button tag is virtually impossible to see if attached properly (close the the head). So the bureaucrats that BSE invited into our industry have decided to go for full scanning to solve the problem of identifying untagged cattle. What number a cow has isn't important to them as long as she has one. There has got to be a better way to find untagged cattle than making the auction markets scan them in and out.
That solution will only work until the markets disappear and the cattle are back doored into feedlots. They will, of course, do the ID tagging. What kind of traceability will we have then?
HT

[grassfarmer]

HT, I noticed you changed your claim a bit - from having the "healthiest cattle herd" in the world to the "healthiest cowherd" in world. Was that to cover up for the appalling level of sickness and drug treatment that goes on when the majority of calves are weaned cold turkey into the auction and shipped to the feedlot resulting in what - 70% treatment rates? Far from a "high health status" cattle production system.
Cows can live quite happily in the dry climate here for sure but don't kid yourself that it's a tough climate for cattle. If you don't believe me try running cows outdoors in a "raw,wet" climate - with considerable wind exposure and 120 inch rainfall.

You seem confused on one of the reasons for introducing the EIDs - packer convenience. Don't you remember all the complaints of how long it took them to clean and manually read the bar code tags? That can end the debate on ketchum metal tags right here - we ain't going back because the packers wouldn't accept it. And the packers own the Government by all accounts.