A different tagging result

[grassfarmer]

Been gathering up yearlings for sale, weighing some grass fatteners, young bulls and checking on my replacement heifers. Out of 139 head only 1 yearling had lost it's EID tag - none had lost their management tags. All tagged at birth with Allflex tags so they have been wearing them for 16 months on average. The tags work for me, the system works for me - no problem with retention or building a credible traceability system based on these tags in my opinion.

[ProFarmer]

congratulation you were nearly perfect. Just try and farm with cow calf, Cows tagged at birth and now at year 3 feeding silage in bunks pastured in bush pasture with high tensile fence up to 50% loss not from ripping out but from tag going hard and the flat round pin part of the tag breaking up into pie segments. One year on summer pasture is not a test.

[per]

I am not sure if this conversation is about management, environment or equipment. I have the same results as grassfarmer as far a retention. The cows have been tagged at birth since the start of RFID 2006?. Seldom do we find one missing. So if it is the tags are there good batches and batches? Good suppliers and bad suppliers? Same results for me with 2 different outfits. My cows spend 8 months in the bush mainly aspen and willow and the rest of the time on the prairie with man made structures. The one thing they seldom see is bale feeders which I think are a cause for concern regarding retention. The other thing I see as a tag killer is bale strings. This conversation likely will not go away so we might just as well figure out what the problem is.

[SADIE]

There is email #3 going out today across Canada to CFIA, CCIA , MPS, Veterinary Clinics and cattlemen across the country. Some of you already have received other emails #1 & #2 from me the technical evidence and pictures of support. I have posted the head technical personnel on this web already with his phone number and email address.
Paul Laronde 519 884 7598 email P.laronde@canadaid.ca. S Mcgrath, Profarmer, Sawbones, Kato, Happlytrails, R.Kaiser, Sagewood and others already receive my email so you
if linked to any one of them contact them.

P Laronde worked for two tagging companies and distributing houses for eartags for 15 years.

It has come to realization that the present eartags are not universal to all aspects of the bovine world or bison.

Again I sold many eartags and many brands during the years we ran two very busy beef cow calf veterinary clinics. Complaints came in and we heard them. This system is not new and now the same complaints are showing up again.

Like the last post I put on the previous thread. Going to be interesting at trade shows latter on this fall from the CCIA booths.

Many tag reports are coming in and those losses from those animals not even seeing twine with bales.

[grassfarmer]

Profarmer, I'm not only summering yearlings I'm a cow calf operation who retains yearlings. Same as Per says on the cows - tagged at birth and retention always at high levels - never been less than 96% retention. Cows, calves and yearlings graze in dense bush pasture as well as clean fields. We winter feed in silage bunks and also ring feeders but we never leave strings on them. I had one calves tag tear out on a fence this spring which is highly unusual for us - if you have enough grass in front of them they aren't usually sticking their heads through fences.

[PureCountry]

This whole argument bewilders me. I inspect cattle every week in feedlots and auctions, and I don't see alot of loss. The most common thing I see in the cattle that have no tags at the auction market, is the owner handing a bag full of tags over to auction staff and saying, "They need to be tagged."

Yeah thanks, we know that.

Yet as Livestock Inspectors for LIS we're not supposed to report that, scold them, say boo to them. The auctions charge them $5/hd to do it, so lots of people just pay the fee and don't bother doing it themselves. By doing this the auctions have created another "service" that they provide, which will ultimately lead to more producers being lazy and paying them to do it.

In short, I meet very few people claiming 50% loss or anywhere near it. I see lots of people too lazy to tag their cattle. I see lots of producers who are tagging, using the age verification paperwork and sending it with the animals.

I will say that I don't see alot of economic benefit to the producer thus far for the system as a whole. We market everything - almost - through beef sales, so we honestly don't tag animals until they leave the farm to go to the butcher shop or auction. We keep our own records and can age verify a 2 or 3 yr old grass-finished steer without having a website or database say it is so. However, rules are rules and I put the tags in. They certainly don't have time to get hard and crack into pie shaped pieces when I put them in at 6am, and the meat inspector removes them 2 hours later when the head is laying on the kill floor. LOL

[smcgrath76]

I suspect there are good and bad batches
of tags. We have had very little
problem until last year, when we lost
30% or so. Same tag brand, same tagger,
new pin, same person tagging, same ear
location, same side of the head, etc.
Lots just pulled apart and left the hole
perfectly round in the ear. Retagged in
the same hole and have had no problems
this summer.
We check every calf before anything
leaves the yard and send a signed affidavit with the truck that all cattle
were tagged and checked when they went
up the loading chute. Cows lose quite a
few, but they are also tagged with steel
curllocks, and the Ztags stay in pretty
well.
I don't think RFID is really a big deal
in its' simplest form, it is the added
complexity of traceability that
increases the burden substantially. No
one in my mind has yet determined what
that exactly looks like, but in its' bureaucratic form it looks pretty
expensive to me.
I think as a producer I would like to
clearly hear, who is involved (all
players), what is the
intent/goal/cost/benefit for/from each
involved, and who is paying. If the
goal is more exports and trickle down
from the packer, I think I have better
things to do with my time. If the goal
is market access to places such as
Europe, I think it may be pretty
expensive for the few who may
voluntarily pursue that market. If it
is for disease tracking, and dealing
with a potential outbreak, then I would
like to see a clear cost/benefit and
some proof that CFIA even has the
personnel to deal with such an issue.
Nothing against CFIA, but I think they
are short staffed, as a result are often
under skilled, and many times show an
extremely limited flexibility or
practicality in sorting through issues.
I think funding cuts to core services
have put them and us in a potentially
constant state of crisis.
Right now, the guy on the ground with
the cows is paying and everyone else is
leveraging the technology or charging a
service fee. That is a pretty crappy
system if you are the guy buying the
tag.

[kato]

SADIE, I didn't get the email....

[grassfarmer]

Just returned from the auction and it was interesting to see the tagging standards. I can't say I saw any that had been fresh tagged before sale but there was lots of poor tagging in evidence. Lots tagged on the top of the front of the ear so the button was pointing back to the front feet. Then the ones put in backwards with the buttons on the back of the ear. I think PCs comment about lazy certainly applies to some auction sellers - the number of bulls, stags and horned cattle presented for sale always amazes me. Seems some some folk still have plenty money to throw away.

[SADIE]

PureCountry--

The problem is not at the auction markets the way you see. It is also a tagging facility. Many cow-calf producers ie like in east-central Alberta are willing to have their whole group of calves or cull cows/bulls tagged at that facility when they sell. $5.00 per head and no concern with the paperwork or records ---immediate age verification they are very confortable with that.

The problem is what was commented at the very beginning is the RETENTION on the Adult BOVINE ANIMAL. Cow-calf producers especially those that need to use PFRA (No Tagging facility) ran into the problem. Many cow-calf producers were sold on the potential of permanent herd-ID, potential of the BIXS feedback records RFID the cow-herd. The tags were applied properly. The wanted to try something because the dangle tags---ID or the Bar Code were becoming a retention problem with time.

May 26 2009 Intermingling with colleagues of mine who were working for CFIA commented to us at Veterinary conferences how far CFIA wanted to go with this. Not just herd ID going into PFRA (Intermingling pastures) but when you cross road allowances on your own pasture. Already the retention problem was showing up in the Adult bovine animal. Producers were just re-applying tags --not knowing all the reasons why the retention loss.

Now the reality of the rest of the monetary rules are being recognized.

184(1) Fail to apply a new approved tag to an animal that has lost its approved tag or that does not bear an approved tag.

185(3) Fail to report the number of the new approved tag and the previously applied approved tag to the administor in the prescribed time.

Again I will comment on this thread like done on previous threads. Clinical trials are now coming in from all four western conferences, from veterinarians who took on a study in research herds, cow-calf producers (excellent record-keepers) have now identified the problem. To some producers like GF and Per the tags are working but to others and there is a very long and growing list now there is a retention problem in the ADULT BOVINE, BULL, COWS, or the BISON group.
These producers and myself are going to continue to use the RFID as a short-term tag only now. Not when they are born but when animals leave the yard for change of ownership. There is a massive "pull-out" of PFRA pastures last year and this fall again because of this problem. Some of those producers will totally leave the beef business.

Remember as a veterinarian in a busy beef practice area one would experience different problems.

On producer might have pneumonia or sudden death in a group of yearlings on grass in the summer---others would not.

another producer might have problems with fence-line with moose and bear--causing intermingling of cattle--others do not.

another producer might have a problem with a chronic cow---others do not.

other producer/or producers might have problems with RFID tag retention rates--others might not.

I wish I could post the pictures on this thread of Male button backs taken from RFID tags still in the animals that are now broken right at the washer area (back of pin). This is the greatest % of the problem in problem tags.

[8thline]

I farm a couple hundred cows and am convinced the problem lies with the tag manufacturers.I have used management tags of many manufactures and find a huge difference of quality from lot to lot and year to year.I have managment tags in some real old girls that were put in many years ago and still ok.i have Z tags plus various other makers that i put in a long time ago and are fine.The second last batch were terrible and i lost so many on my red cows i,ve lost all record of who these cows are.We did our best to reidentify these cows and backed up thiers plus all my mature cows I.D. with RFID buttons.That batch of RFID was terrible as not only did the backs become star shaped and then of course fell out but the through the ear shaft part is disintigrating causing loss.These are only less than one year in the cow.I have other RFID in for years and are fine .Talking to tag makers at trade shows tell us they will gladly replace for free but i dont see them volunteering to come to help reinstall them,but more importantly all my id on these cows are lost.Some of these cows were purchased from various location around the province so if some tracing issue did arise this would be a dead end for tracking.It amazes me plastics wont disintigrate in land fill for 100 yrs but we cant have id tags that last a year..The tag makers should be held accountable for the junk they sell.

[ProFarmer]

I will second that last comment