ACUTE AND CHRONIC PAIN IN THE BOVINE ANIMAL

[per]

Sadie, you bring to mind a question. Who designs the protocol that becomes the "label" on how to tag? Interesting that it is a good idea when my Vet tells me so but a producer who has installed thousands of tags knows nothing of what he talks about.

While on the subject of tagging. A temporary stick-on tag would be very useful when replacing tags on animals going to slaughter. I know that won't go anywhere as I suggested it to the powers that be before. Also a plastic management dangle part would be nice. I have seen the prototype of such tags but can't find anyone to sell them to me. That would eliminate one hole and the associated pain and danger involved with it.

[PureCountry]

Sadie, I realize who you are, as I'm sure you know who I am. Since you seem to be looking for it, and deserve it, I want you to know that I acknowledge and respect the experience someone like you brings to any conversation. That said, you tend to dramatize your arguments and points a wee bit in my opinion. I do not want to hear about Mr. Murphy from Bonnyville or any long list of storied ranches in East Central Alberta. I've inspected cattle from most of the ones you listed.

This is still my opinion - I do not care if you are John Gattey on the Cross Bar or Lee Roworth on the Roworth-Cameron Ranch, or David Moss, CEO of LIS - if you've been hurt trying to tag a bovine, you put part of your body somewhere it ought not been. My Dad had his jaw broke and his top denture plate split and drove up into the roof of his mouth by a "swinging pendulum". I wasn't much help dragging him to the truck tog et him to the hospital cause I was only about 12, but the memory stuck. My Dad was the first to admit when he could think straight, that it all could have been avoided if he had haltered the cow.

The extra time spent applying a halter or even a neck rope is well worth it. And trust me, from where I'm at, I can see things just fine. I've roped cattle in an alley and snubbed them to a post in order to tag them - no injuries here either - alot less classy than a chute.

I really do not see the point in fighting the RFID tags on the basis of, "It causes undue pain and suffering to the animal." You've seen alot more stress on bovines than me in your experience - will you honestly try and tell me that re-tagging is more stressful than prodding up and down alleys and loading chutes, stock canes across the legs, back and head over and over again, or being slammed with gates and doors? This stuff happens every day across Alberta in auction markets and feedlots.

Even if I was to agree with you on the number of tags lost and the falicy being on the shoulders of the tags, the more I see the way animals are routinely treated, the less inclined I am to agree with you that retagging is a detriment to the industry.

I guess my point is that for someone of your stature to take up a flag and crusade on behalf of something is great, however I feel that your time could be better directed to other issues that would go alot farther in the fight for animal welfare or workplace safety in the beef industry. THat's just my opinion, don't let it offend you.

[Happytrails]

PC I hope you also advise the CFIA to drop their persecution of cattlemen and use their resources more productively.

[smcgrath76]

I think the RFID tags are a reasonable
solution for traceability, and yes for
the purpose intended I believe they are
better than a brand. I believe a brand
is a better form of ID at an auction
market, or from the back of a horse.
I think we have missed the boat
regarding management opportunities with
the tag and over time we should move to
DNA.
I think some common sense with the
regulations and enforcement would be
beneficial. We are not in Europe, do
not receive the same degree/type of
funding and are dealing with a
significantly different
topographical/scale challenge in many
cases.
If we are serious about pursuing
markets, then we need a functional
traceability system that can be
electronic and automated. That said,
again some common sense is in order as
far as charging people under the act,
and/or cost sharing the program.
As well, I know there are cases where
defective tags are sold, and there needs
to be a method of dealing with these.
For the purposes, I don't see a better
alternative to RFID tags at the moment,
however I do see the need for some
semblance of common sense at all levels
of enforcement.

[PureCountry]

HappyTrails said - PC I hope you also advise the CFIA to drop their persecution of cattlemen and use their resources more productively.

Touche. I agree 100%. The few CFIA staff I have met have not made a significant impression on me, although admittedly, it has only been a few field staff. Some of these stories coming out about confrontations between CFIA and producers sound like witch hunts, and make me wonder what both sides of the story would sound like if told face to face.

I myself have been a little overzealous in confronting a producer a time or 2 about paperwork and proof of ownership, and luckily have always had a more experienced Inspector present to smooth things over. I've been on the other end of it too, from the perspective of a producer when taking an animal to an abbattoir. We always hope cooler heads will prevail, however there is a gap between hope and reality when people forget the common goal and/or greater good.

[grassfarmer]

I agree PC - over-dramatized nonsense. When you try to claim that tagging an animal is causing acute pain compared to the other procedures animals raised for human consumption regularly undergo you stop being taken seriously in my book. I think sadie is picking the wrong hill do die on - try picking a mountain instead of a mole hill.

HT is all for no regulation - do you also want the police to quit harassing drunk drivers? A society needs rules and regulations and unfortunately with human nature being what it is that entails enforcement. By necessity that applies to agriculture because we are producing the food people consume. Not a difficult concept - comply or pay the price, just like anyone else in society or business.

[burnt]

The CFIA is being absolutely hypocritical in their demands for compliance in animal ID issues.

The useless, lazy b----- couldn't even follow the advice of the British vets who gave them solid advice in the '80's and '90's on keeping the potentially BSE infected imports out of the food/feed supply chain.

We all know all too well how that turned out.

Now, they want to cram more regulation down our throats without any acknowledgment from their quarter that they screwed up on the BSE issue.

While I can see merit in traceability, I am coupling compliance here in Ontario to our request for compensation for damages suffered as a result of their own lack of competence in tracking animals.

I am going to begin advocating a boycott of all "ONTRACE" workshops in order to assert back-pressure against implementation of more regulations in an industry that is, in all likelihood, going through a government-induced death spasm.

Government is not above rules of behavior and action. Government must be carried out for the good of ALL the people, not just a few.

And until they are held accountable for their actions, or lack thereof, they cannot expect limp-wristed compliance from the people whom they supposed "serve".

Government by bureaucracy (an unelected dictatorship) is the lowest, meanest form of power.

[Happytrails]

Burnt said "Government by bureaucracy (an unelected dictatorship) is the lowest, meanest form of power." I agree and that is why Sadie's victory is so important IMHO. The tagging debate will rage on but our liability for prosecution and conviction has gone way down.

[SADIE]

Purecountry---It is now my turn. I phoned the Provost Auction Market tonight to respectfully make contact with Purecountry to ask if that person wanted to get detailed information that came forward on ear tag loss that was presented at the hearing. Just to be fair--there is alot of information.

The Provost crew want all the detailed information and want posters to be put up at the market.

No I dont know you and you do not know me. Don't bluff. The brand inspector you work with is very excited about this victory and what it means to the cattle industry. Section 176 affected so many and we got alot of "push back" at the court room.

The brand inspector & I talked for a hour. His brother graduated a year behind me from vet school and just sold the practice in Stettler. That family had us do yearly spring heifer spaying through the flank --another painfull surgery so we learnt and perfected the Rectal vaginal method called the Kimberly Rupp spaying technigue now the ovarian drop technique. My brother took that method to Australia and taught others there.

Reference to the Crossbar Ranch and John Gattey----There ranches in 1984 came in to my clinic and demand special service and special price YTBAR CROSSBAR AND SIMKIN. I told them I will not run a two price system and showed them the door. The business exculated because of that move.

I am well conditioned in taking daggers in the chest by practincing in that Ranching area of ALberta. I lasted another 11 years and didn't miss their business or bullshit.

The crew at the Provost martket and other brand inspectors have given me their emails and they want all the information on this 16 month case which was a "TEAM EFFORT"---Included advice from colleagues within CFIA and those that just retired because they couldn't take what was coming from the top down.

Enough on this thread.

[grassfarmer]

"The useless, lazy b----- couldn't even follow the advice of the British vets who gave them solid advice in the '80's and '90's on keeping the potentially BSE infected imports out of the food/feed supply chain."

That's quite a quote Burnt. Believe me there wasn't much solid advice coming from British vets in the 80s and 90s on BSE.