ACUTE AND CHRONIC PAIN IN THE BOVINE ANIMAL

[grassfarmer]

I agree PC - over-dramatized nonsense. When you try to claim that tagging an animal is causing acute pain compared to the other procedures animals raised for human consumption regularly undergo you stop being taken seriously in my book. I think sadie is picking the wrong hill do die on - try picking a mountain instead of a mole hill.

HT is all for no regulation - do you also want the police to quit harassing drunk drivers? A society needs rules and regulations and unfortunately with human nature being what it is that entails enforcement. By necessity that applies to agriculture because we are producing the food people consume. Not a difficult concept - comply or pay the price, just like anyone else in society or business.

[burnt]

The CFIA is being absolutely hypocritical in their demands for compliance in animal ID issues.

The useless, lazy b----- couldn't even follow the advice of the British vets who gave them solid advice in the '80's and '90's on keeping the potentially BSE infected imports out of the food/feed supply chain.

We all know all too well how that turned out.

Now, they want to cram more regulation down our throats without any acknowledgment from their quarter that they screwed up on the BSE issue.

While I can see merit in traceability, I am coupling compliance here in Ontario to our request for compensation for damages suffered as a result of their own lack of competence in tracking animals.

I am going to begin advocating a boycott of all "ONTRACE" workshops in order to assert back-pressure against implementation of more regulations in an industry that is, in all likelihood, going through a government-induced death spasm.

Government is not above rules of behavior and action. Government must be carried out for the good of ALL the people, not just a few.

And until they are held accountable for their actions, or lack thereof, they cannot expect limp-wristed compliance from the people whom they supposed "serve".

Government by bureaucracy (an unelected dictatorship) is the lowest, meanest form of power.

[Happytrails]

Burnt said "Government by bureaucracy (an unelected dictatorship) is the lowest, meanest form of power." I agree and that is why Sadie's victory is so important IMHO. The tagging debate will rage on but our liability for prosecution and conviction has gone way down.

[SADIE]

Purecountry---It is now my turn. I phoned the Provost Auction Market tonight to respectfully make contact with Purecountry to ask if that person wanted to get detailed information that came forward on ear tag loss that was presented at the hearing. Just to be fair--there is alot of information.

The Provost crew want all the detailed information and want posters to be put up at the market.

No I dont know you and you do not know me. Don't bluff. The brand inspector you work with is very excited about this victory and what it means to the cattle industry. Section 176 affected so many and we got alot of "push back" at the court room.

The brand inspector & I talked for a hour. His brother graduated a year behind me from vet school and just sold the practice in Stettler. That family had us do yearly spring heifer spaying through the flank --another painfull surgery so we learnt and perfected the Rectal vaginal method called the Kimberly Rupp spaying technigue now the ovarian drop technique. My brother took that method to Australia and taught others there.

Reference to the Crossbar Ranch and John Gattey----There ranches in 1984 came in to my clinic and demand special service and special price YTBAR CROSSBAR AND SIMKIN. I told them I will not run a two price system and showed them the door. The business exculated because of that move.

I am well conditioned in taking daggers in the chest by practincing in that Ranching area of ALberta. I lasted another 11 years and didn't miss their business or bullshit.

The crew at the Provost martket and other brand inspectors have given me their emails and they want all the information on this 16 month case which was a "TEAM EFFORT"---Included advice from colleagues within CFIA and those that just retired because they couldn't take what was coming from the top down.

Enough on this thread.

[grassfarmer]

"The useless, lazy b----- couldn't even follow the advice of the British vets who gave them solid advice in the '80's and '90's on keeping the potentially BSE infected imports out of the food/feed supply chain."

That's quite a quote Burnt. Believe me there wasn't much solid advice coming from British vets in the 80s and 90s on BSE.

[PureCountry]

Phoned the auction to figure out who I was? Couldn't you just have asked me on the forum for a phone call if you wanted to talk so bad? In the future, go that route, 780-888-3791, wait, you already called here tonight I see. Why didn't you leave a message?

If you're really calling to see if I want all that information, the answer is no. I appreciate the offer, but no. I will however return your call when I have time, maybe Thursday night. It's a little late now, and tomorrow is farmer's market day in Sherwood Park, always a late night.

What has your brother's clinic in Stettler got to do with anything, or his trips around the world? No offense, I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just stating the obvious - and your spaying techniques for the Mailer family etc, etc, etc. Like I said in an earlier post, I acknowledge that you have many years of experience and knowledge. I am only pointing out that I think your efforts would be better spent elsewhere, and that I have no interest in hearing more complaining about RFID's and traceability. It's my opinion, and I guess I had better be careful sharing it on a public forum, after hearing from my Supervisor that you called. I don't need friction there thanks. Bryon's a good inspector and good to work with. What other inspectors contact you for is between you and them, nothing to do with me.

[SADIE]

Pure country

Correction---Bryon brother is the veterinarian in Stettler.

Correction---Tag loss according to Dean Lawes, Jack Lawes at the Provost Market is a real issue that is why they want all that information.

Just a comment from those that manage the market they already have seen the CFIA "back off at that market since the ruling at the hearing".

Yes Bryon Mailer is a very good and respected Brand Inspector and has been there for years.

[SADIE]

Pure Country---the dramatic story of your father's injury. I am glad you brought that out so the forum can see and hear all about that also. Another victim of injury making one want to work around the head of the animal.

At least a branding iron the operator is a couple feet away for the initial or even the second brand on an animal.

RFID eartags are supposed to be applied properly. Deep in the ear next to the "BRAIN".

In the court room CFIA legal counsel had a plastic ear and pliers and ear tags showing the proper placement. Our comments were that for safety reasons like per mentioned there should be longer applicator.

The hearing in Swift Current on June 24 COWARS VS CFIA. The court room had about 12 Ranchers showing up as witness. CFIA lawyer tried to do demonstration on proper tag placement. Cecil and Jackie Coward both laughed and had the tribunal judege laughing along with the audience. Try tagging an adult animal a second or third time ----it is not a module like you hold --try a moving target blowing snot in your face et all.

Great dramatic story about your father's unfortunate injury!!!

[PureCountry]

Oops, my bad, got the brother thing mixed up - wanna prosecute me? Should I seek legal counsel?

The story about my Dad was simply to show that I've seen firsthand what can and does happen, but most importantly to illustrate that my Dad, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, should not have put himself in that position without first restraining the animal!! You didn't get that part of my point obviously when I tried explaining it the first time. Now you try to use my story as ammunition back at me, by focusing on the injury, and avoiding the common sense aspect of safe cattle handling procedure. A cow/calf/feeder that is restrained with a halter, rope or neck extender headgate will not be able to inflict such an injury. Forget it.

If you push for an auto retract tagger you'll be doing something worthwhile and good for the industry, I would think we'll both agree on that. Doesn't look like there's much else we'll agree on though, so I think I'm done on this one.

[SADIE]

goodmorning already purecountry.

I don't prosecute I defend.

In the court room we pushed for many things in closing arguments. This was 16 months of research and yes you have to offer positive constructive options in closing arguments. We did that. What was missed at the hearing on June 15 was shared with the Cowards group so that they pushed for that at their hearing the following week of June 24.

The talk about spaying heifers is another example of Acute pain to the bovine animal. Thats why that was brought up. This proceedure was done first and then seeing the pain that incurred a small group of us with ranchers supporting the learning process on their animals helped us perfecet the KR spaying technigue which is not painful at all.

Good discussion Purecountry.

[burnt]

Grassfarmer, your reply indicates that you have not familiarized yourself with the particulars of the class action listed on the website.

Read it and see if you still think that the CFIA was not put on notice about the impending situation.

From a letter dated June 24, 1993, to Dr. Tom Dukes, Animal Disease Research Institute, Agriculture Canada, Nepean, On., these are the words of Dr. Ray Bradley, Central Veterinary Clinic,New Haw, Weybridge, Surrey -

"The handwriting is on the wall for any country without a ruminant feed ban and which has a chink in the armour. The chink can be imported cattle, imported feed, the presence of scrapie or BSE or sub-clinical forms of these diseases. Our experience should be ( but regrettably is not always) a salutary reminder of lurking disasters."

Now tell me, grassfarmer, were Dr. Ray Bradley's words prophetic? Accurate? Or far-fetched and misdirected?

Well, it was only months after this letter was written that we had our first case - and it was a British import!

And still the government did virtually nothing to head off the mess that developed since then.

Had they immediately followed known and recommended protocol, things could be a lot different today.

[burnt]

Oops, sorry sadie for hijacking your thread. Things kinda got crossed up here. No more on this here.

[grassfarmer]

Burnt, I do have the benefit of actually living and knowing what happened in the UK experience of BSE. The recommendation you quoted was not the accepted British veterinary advice at that time - if it had been they could likely have got a head start on the introduction of their own enhanced feed ban which didn't come about until 1996 - 3 years after the quote you posted. If you dig around you could likely come up with a recommendation from Mark Purdey as to better preventative procedures dated around the same time - it wouldn't mean that was British veterinary protocol at that time though.

[SADIE]

Pure Country--I now have been in contact with Jerry Hewson, Jack Lawes, Dean Lawes and Bryon Mailer at the Provost Livestock Exchange. Information and pictures have been sent to that market by email and a package will be going out next week to that market also.

I understand this this market is one "test Market" for scanning in Alberta. JH had a great discussion with me on his experience seeing the scanner "reads" on those animals and the "no reads". The pictures of RFID failure---Allflex ---who has 90 % of the tag market share- has the one problem of the Yellow data rings seperation over time and falling out the front of the ear. The animals one can still see the Male backs when visually observing from the backs of the ear.----Another example of a non read.

The guys at the market have contacted the CCIA personnel about the "accumulation" of lost RFID eartags at the market and told CCIA to take them a deregister them themselves.

It was suggested to me to contact the ALBERTA AUCTION MARKET ASSOCIATION about this gathered information and pictures that has come from across the country as this case became known and proceeded towards the hearing. I am sure that PLE will forward the information themselves to that group.

I believe that sale day is still Friday so LIS should be present today. It will be around you and there will be discussion around coffee.

Later this fall the PLE encouraged me to stop in and requaint old friendships.
I originally thought your handle was B. Mailer. That is the only Brand Inspector I recall that I ever knew at the PLE. I had a long working relationship with the Mailers. That is why out of courtesy I wanted a discussion over all the information that is now out there.

Pure country---You have stated you have worked in the oil patch.

I too have had a "Hand" in working in the oil patch and pipelines. Some in the oil patch--meaning the pipeline oil ccompanies are not happy with my hand.
Talk to the landowners along the Enbrdge new Alberta Clipper project. We signed the SAPL/MPLA Enbridge settlement agreement on Oct 12/2007 bringing home the first ever "linear payment" along with many important issues of Crossing regulations, deeper pipeline and abandonment considerations on pipelines crossing agriculture land.

[littledoggie]

Maybe we should put the RFID tag in backwards so the female side is clearly visible.