What happened to age verification with this falls calf run in Saskatchewan

[kato]

It's a niche market that's had the premium that usually goes with a niche market taken away from it. It's taken away a premium that would have given a smaller independent processor an edge that could have made a real difference. The advantage that could have come from this premium has been destroyed, to the benefit of larger processors.

[kato]

I should add...

The large processors don't even really seem to care about age verification, but of course they're happy to have potential competition lose a potential advantage. Who wouldn't be?

[grassfarmer]

Very good post Kato I would agree with you entirely - at least you can see what the potential benefit was.

Greybeard you seem to have the same misunderstanding of the "socialist" system that most western Canadians have. Bureaucrats and paper work increase as any country develops - it's what civilisation does to keep people employed once they progress beyond the point of having to physically mine coal, make steel etc - it's a replacement for the post mechanization dearth of jobs. The US has as many bureaucrats as anyone else so are they a socialist country?

[Ruken]

Wow, good discussions here folks! Feedlots in alberta purchase calves for as cheaply as they can. It's the free enterprise option. They can also pay extra if they need to as well. Un AV'd calves will not fit certain markets at slaughter time so they pay accordingly for them at entry. Like it or not.
The real reality is that AV is a PR excercise for certain trade ministers in certain foreign countries to open their market to us. It gives them another "reply" when they get bombarded by their oposition whether Canadian beef is safe or not. (Think the likes of Ignatief) All said, it increases the opportunity for Canadian beef to go overseas. Does that help the traders in the futures markets? Absolutely. Do the feedlots sell into the futures market? Yes again. Considering that greed for profit exists in the free enterprise model, does that affeect the cow calf people? Of course it does.
And, even if it never would offer a premium, the fact that it exists to track reportable diseases, makes traceability worth while. Does AVing fit into that? Yes it does. Someday, when AV is 15 years old and the fellows from the CFIA come to your farm, hopefully you will have done your job and will know the ages of your cows and will only have to dig a hole for the ones that are of susceptable age, not the whole lot...

[Ruken]

15444?

Do you also cheat on your taxes?

Probably do. It's amazing how the brain can do summersaults and contortions to arrive at the conclusions that it wants.

Keep it up. I hope to read that you've received a $10000 fine for cheating the system.

[kato]

Ruken said: "Feedlots in Alberta purchase calves for as cheaply as they can. It's the free enterprise option. They can also pay extra if they need to as well. Un AV'd calves will not fit certain markets at slaughter time so they pay accordingly for them at entry. Like it or not."

True.

Here's the rub. There are enough compulsary age verified calves in Alberta to more than fill the markets that need them. Age verification is mandatory, so those calves will be used in this way. Since there are more of them than what the market requires, I doubt they are no more likely to go for any more money than they would otherwise.

Therefore, Saskatchewan and Manitoba calves are really not worth age verifying, since AV is not needed for them. We will not see a premium for AV until the market is so big that Alberta can't fill it. Is that going to happen any time in the near future? No it is not.

Yet another example of the perils of living in Ten Little Countries.

[SADIE]

Ruken

Your last paragraph not only scares the "hell" out of me but will make me dig in and fight all the harder.

We are talking about property rights when now we have to av our calves when they are put up for sale and there is no premium. Property rights.

I will throw out another term right now and maybe start another thread but what is going on here with animal ID, rules being made by a beaurocracy CCIA that represented industry had a couple of cow-calf people sitting at the table to say the cow-calf man had a vote. Now a whole new set of laws are drafted by industry without the mandate of all the stakeholders the cow-calf. The laws that I now have studied in detail have expanded and that caused expansion of the government regulatory body the Canadian Food Inspection agency is a another form of REGULATORY CAPTURE.

This is no different than how the big energy companies prop up the NATIONAL ENERGY BOARD and get regulation over the pipeline landowners it regualates without landowner participating and resulting in section 112 of the NEB ACt that has not only has stolen property in the control zone (outside the easement) but restricts modern farming over the pipes without compensation.

A few threads back some of you in Alberta got all hyped up over Bill 19, BIll 36 Bill 46 and Bill 50---an erosion of property rights.

I have been priveleged to have volunteered and worked alongside and with the CAEPLA GROUP.

[15444]

Ruken,

No reason to cheat the taxes. The general population, including myself, benefit from the government spending money on all aspects of society. Nothing wrong with that. As long as the system is fair, the status-quo may proceed.

And the last statement is not very likely. As Happytrails put it, there is no verification in the AV system, nor in the ID system. It's a producer's word against all others. Birth records can be destroyed and re-written. Better take the blinders off if you don't think it's being done on a fair-sized scale at all levels of the industry. This is what I am trying to emphasize in this discussion. The only reason I am providing a personal account is due to the fact that it seems to be the only way that some of the people on here can get their heads out of the clouds.

You can't shame me for taking a stance against a system that the majority did not ask for. I don't fall for the guilt trips insecure people like to throw onto others.

I also don't buy Kato's stance (as an individual) to change the system and that 'it can be done'. B.S. Eliminating the ID system is not going to happen (too many people fear government in this country). Reality tells anyone that. The only way to destroy a authoritarian system is from the inside-out.

[Ruken]

Sadie;
I'm assuming this is the last paragraph that you are talking about.

"And, even if it never would offer a premium, the fact that it exists to track reportable diseases, makes traceability worth while. Does AVing fit into that? Yes it does. Someday, when AV is 15 years old and the fellows from the CFIA come to your farm, hopefully you will have done your job and will know the ages of your cows and will only have to dig a hole for the ones that are of susceptable age, not the whole lot..."

Why should this scare the "hell" out of anyone?
Someday, when there were a reportable disease floating around my province, I will want the most protections in place to make a bad situation better...and quickly. Firstly, I will want to be the first person to know that it is in my herd, not the last. Secondly, I will want to help the CCIA do their job as quickly as possible to snuff it out, and thirdly, I will want to have it done as painlessly as possible meaning that the fewer cows they have to euthanize from my herd the better.
What is the harm in that? Why would I want to dig in my heals for something link that?
Give your pride a shake?

[kato]

Once again guys, ID is not the same as age verification. We do ID at our place. We have no problem with that, other than the tag retention issues.

We also keep track of the numbers on cattle we buy so that if there is a traceback, we can verify that it wasn't our animal. We do age verify our calves, but we don't give the papers to anyone who is not willing to pay us for our work.

The government doesn't need to know when a certain cow walks across the road to the pasture, or when she comes home again. Movement tracking is not reasonable with the technology currently in place.

Disagreeing with the rules is fine, but it's not a good enough reason to break them. It puts everyone else in a bad light, and the last thing we need now is another controversy. Haven't we all been beaten down by the actions of others enough already? Do we have to get screwed by fellow cattle producers too?

[grassfarmer]

15444,
There are many things in every day life that you sign to verify the information or statements you have given are true so this is by no means unique. Applying to open a bank account, vehicle bill of sale, filing your tax form - these are all done on same basis as selling cattle with an AV certificate. It is a legal document you are signing and you can be held to that by audit. I'm with Ruken - I look forward to any cheats being caught and penalised because they do not deserve to make financial gain off the honest producers in the industry.

Good luck pushing the animal disease outbreak scenario to these guys Ruken - I've tried many times to explain why we need an animal movement tracking system for just that purpose to no avail. It seems burying their heads in the sand is the preferred method. Unfortunately if it does come to something like a F M outbreak it might cost us millions of animals and the resulting financial hardship to learn the lesson.
Easier to live in the dark ages and pretend it can't happen.

[SADIE]

Ruken and GF

I have reviewed all the current monetary fine penalty under the Animal Health Act. I have yet to find one part of the act that mentions age verification.

I started this thread by asking----How is AV going to be regulated.

[Happytrails]

Ruken. If the CCIA has a major role in disease containment I fear that the response to hurricane Katrina will look stellar. It might actually be comical to have the CFIA head out into the country looking for certain ID #'s. If finding them means quarantine you can be sure they will NOT be found.

GF. We HAVE movement tracking in Alberta and LIS would be the primary resource if; God Forbid, there is a disease outbreak. We disagree about whether an ID tag based tracking system would be as much help in the same situation. I don't think it would and I don't think that we can afford both. So if ID tag scanning goes ahead we lose IMHO.

In my mind, to contain a disease outbreak we need to lock gates and shut down livestock movement. That has to be done by the people in the alleys. It cannot be done by datacrats in an office building. HT

[grassfarmer]

HT, You don't have time in an outbreak to be dealing with sketchy brand info on the 50% of cattle that carry them. It's game over before you start. The difference between having a proper tracking system in place or not could well cost several million animals. Who says we can't afford a tracking system in light of this?
OK so you shut down movements - for how long can that occur before you have a welfare crisis? several months would likely be needed.
And don't even think we would be starting movements back up again unless we had a tracking system in place. The politicians and the media spectacle would see to that.

[SADIE]

15444

I want to reply to your last post to Ruken

You bring out some very good points but the comments to Kato I would like to show another side.

The monetary fine system is in place and now through fines being levied each fine being levied instead of "guilt" being put on the victum there is a huge chance to turn it into an opportunity and a building block to change the direction of the law.

Posted a new thread. When a monetary fine is levied it now is like xmas time all over to that individual if he turns it around. It won't be on site it will come in a registered mail. Like many of you if you get a bill you do not expect you are going to ask questions correct? Try to phone CFIA and ask about it---The enforcing signature will not talk to you. You have a time line (back of paper) and there is an option 5 (small print) to contact by fax the Canadian Agriculture Review Tribunal---ask for an oral hearing---not writin but oral. IF you are going to have to pay eg $500.00---OK that is all they can get out of your back pocket.----It is a good chance to get these often "unknow laws to many". Let your neighbour know ----older ranchers at coffee row--some don't know internet will support you and brings on good laughter. A hearing often is 1.5 to 2 years down the road---YOu get to set the place and you do have a great part in setting the date.

Do you thing CFIA wants you to take this to a TRIBUNAL instead of paying the 50% of the fine within the 2 week period---NOT IN YOUR LIFE.

To survive on a ranch today you have to be part mechanic, part vet, part welder, part book-keeper why not learn to be part defence cousel. It is a great and fantastic experience. YOur goal is to get to a tribunal hearing not to win it. THe decision is another 3-4 months later and now even if found non-compliant sit back and let them come to you to collect. Once a victum and you research on Canadian agriculture Review tribunal ---decisions---talk to those posted. The system is being tested by others---they cannot take from your bank account (not the revenue canada avenue)---They have to go through the sheriff and down the road ---some legal and accountants and bankers advice ---really difficult to collect--up to 3-5 years.

Each case is a building block for discontented cattlemen that feel something beaurocratic is being forced upon us---we can use it to our advantage.