CFIA to ramp up fines

[Happytrails]

The world according to GF. Black is white, night is day, and disease is diagnosed by tags not veterinarians.

[smallguy]

Good Morning cattlemen!! Because I only have a handful of cattle, I usually do not have to much to say on this site, however I really do enjoy reading it. One thing I must say however, is that even though I feel that some sort of tracking should may be be done, I feel that this has gotten out of control. My neighbor however who has always had a passion for cattle, has made a prediction a while back concerning this CFIA. He claims that this will all come to a halt some day when the good old famous word "SUE" comes into play. He says that there will come a time here soon when some human life will be taken, in a terrible accident while tagging these cattle, and the CFIA will be the first to be sued, and they will probably lose. They have forced a dangerous situation on the caattleman. Sure people will argue about proper handling facilities, but were is the line drawn on what is considered proper. I feel he may be right, after all if people can try to sue tobacco companies, and were not FORCED into smoking, then how would the eyes of the court look at this. Food for thought!!

[smallguy]

Sorry, but maybe he was talking more of the CCIA than the CFIA.

[SADIE]

I will try to give perspective what it is like owning and operatiing a veterinary clinic in a rural community for 20 years.

Over the 20 years in practice I saw the evolution of alot of products biologicals, vaccines, endo ecto endocides, tags and equipment that was introduced to the industry. When a product was introduced we researched the insert packages on protocal, operation proceedures. The worst thing we wanted when a product was sold through our practice is "COMPLAINTS ABOUT THAT PRODUCT"---we are the first line of complaint. It takes time when we were often busy to handle the complaints. ie: poor Sulfa product that didn't dissolve when treating a pen of sick calves, Cydectin and all the problems that caused treating endo ectocides in cattle, the famous "chemcast" for chemically castration of calves.

Other than GF and a few others (who have had great success) the real complaints of RFID eartag retention in the adult cows and bulls was and still is being presented to the veterinary clinics and outlets that are selling these RFID eartags.

Since the Jan 2011 Grainnews of Lee Harts article the research that is now on this 40 minute DVD received the evidence that the OPERATING TEMPERATURES OF ALLFLEX RFID TAGS are 0C--50C. And Destron Operating Temps are -25C-50C. Why wasn't this information ever available to the practicing veterinarians who sell these eartags. It now is. How many days in the winter of 2010 and 2011 did temperatures drop below 0 C in Canada. How many days/nights with wind did temps drop below -25C in Canada?

As a veterinarian that survived 20 years in practice you always wanted to sell a superior product (To Prevent the Complaint time on Product).

Now lets look at the recent $6000.00 fine that was just sent out to distribution outlets. I have seen colleagues in their practices during the busy times that suddenly your office staff (often one) are gone for one or two days Like sickness, a funeral, child situation and the clinic is swamped. What happens when your computer goes down (again rural areas) and you are down for one day or two.

Again GF--Some veterinarians early on chose not to sell RFID eartags because of :low margin of profit, don't want to sell an inferior product. Now with this potential fine threatening of $6000.00 will be the "final nail" in the coffin for others to remove them from their shelf. Some producers do want to purchase all they can from their veterinarian but here will be another product removed from their shelves. Who wants to take the risk.

A non-compliance of a rule violation with the CFIA does not allow "due diliguence"----There is no exception to a rule.

[SADIE]

<a href="http://s1138.photobucket.com/albums/n523/kphaber/?action=view&current=img187.jpg" target="_blank"></a>

I just got this photobucket (picture transfer) figured out in the last two days. I will send you this one of the 3 operating temps guidance on RFID eartags.

Could this be why Australia has a better retention rate since they can graze 11 months of the year??

[grassfarmer]

Don't put words in my mouth HT - I said animal health outbreaks are detected by farmers and then reported to veterinary authorities whether that be local, provincial or CFIA staff. An animal movement tracking system is necessary to contain an outbreak of a rapidly developing disease where the symptoms don't show up until a few days later like F M. The EID tags give us the best chance of achieving that system.

None of you answered my questions - what would you consider a suitable timeline to be reporting the sales? indeed what has the allowable time been up to now for that matter?

[per]

I don't know what it was before but they do need to be done expeditiously. 48-72 hrs?? The $6000 fine is onerous enough to keep anyone from selling them. A small busy vet clinic with staff issues or a large box store with staff issues a $6000 fine is way too much. As far as traceability goes, all the industry groups from cow calf to feeders have agreed on a set of principles to use as a guideline.

[SADIE]

If vets start dedicating themselves to running campaigns against cattle traceability/movement programs they better drop the argument that they are concerned about preventing serious animal health outbreaks. That is absolutely hypocritical.

Gf I copied and pasted this from your previous thread.

Now it is my turn. I am a rancher that still carries a veterinary licence. I mentioned what I learned from 20 years in practice and what that experience taught me along with my collegues.

When we promoted or sold a product to our customers we wanted to stand behind that a product is good. If we found flaws or defects in the product we as an individual or a veterinary group looked for solutions to the problems by eliminating the faulty products.

1)Sulfamethazine that didn't disolve in water---went to the repatable products of sulfamethazine that did work like good old Blackstrap or 1323 or SMT or found other injectable products that worked for producers.

2)Endo-ectocides for treatement in bovine species---Eliminated Cydectin and kept on with Ivermectin, Dectomax and now the Generics of ivermectini.

3)Chemcast---bloodless castration and painfree for castrating calves---we didn't stop promoting castration we went to alternatives.

Animal Id and traceability---the concept is good, I promoted it in my herd and I was the first to ID my commercial cow-herd in my area. But now through my experience and widespread story of CFIA monetary fine section 176 and now 24 months of research from practioners and cattlemen of RFID experience in Canadian conditions there are problems with the system.


The DVD keeps being updated because of new data and research and experiences that keep coming to my attention. My Feb trip to Peace RIver I mentioned I had dual purpose ---ya bet ya. I contacted vet clinics all the way up and back to bring in cattlemen for a showing of this DVD. WE all exchanged knowledge. I asked for suggesting and I learn from other cattlemen about their experiences.

THE BOTTOM LINE AND GENERAL COMMENTS FROM MANY GRASS ROOTS CANADIAN CATTLEMEN THAT ARE FOLLOWING AGRIVILLE AND THIS THREAD IS

"CFIA, CCIA, CANADIAN CATTLEMEN, ABP, ALMA" Lets just step back and take a look at our current RFID EARTAG and Traceablility System. It is a very high priced traceability system that has lots of errors---It is not working. Can we restructure this somehow and redirect to something that can and might work better--going forward.

Some suggestions that the DVD brings out is:

1)Continue with the RFID eartag---Use it as a short-term tag only ---Leave premise (coiw-calf) through the feedlot?

2)Can we RFID on the Ketchum Tag of the COW and BUll.

3)Why not the microchip---the technology is there for us to use for pennies. The Micochip can be read with better reader technology from greater distances.

4)Can we remove some of the language "Laws that are in force" by CFIA ---Remove the laws /wording>

5)What can be done about application to the "Fractious animal" going to slaughter, auction market so that humane injuries do not occur.

The DVD story will keep on spreading and we keep evolving as new information, engineer consultant data to CCIA keep coming forward, Animal welfare issues and discussing will keep expanding and hopefully streamline the technology so that the current system is corrected to one that does work.

[chalice]

I did this very thing to a good client last spring. His kids came home for the weekend and he decided to process his calves while he had help. It was Sunday when he called me to get him some tags. I was going somewhere, so I threw the paper work on the desk for the staff to do the next morning. The girl that normally looks after it was on a medical leave, the summer student filed it. We didn't find out until his calves were at the auction mart with out a birth certificate that fall. Very unhappy customer and I don't blame him. With some scrambling, we sorted it out but there is nothing worse than causing a loyal customer that much grief. GF Would a $6000 fine improve the situation?

[grassfarmer]

"Would a $6000 fine improve the situation?" - Yes, if it causes suppliers to either get them notified in a timely manner or quit selling tags.

chalice or SADIE - what do you consider a suitable time lapse between selling a tag and getting the info to CCIA to make the system work for both the tag seller and tag buyer?

[chalice]

So what you are saying is that if you were that client and I had admitted my mistake, repaired the situation and apologized for the inconvenience you would still feel it was necesssary to issue me a fine?

[grassfarmer]

The purpose of the threat of a fine is to modify peoples behaviour so that they comply with the program. Why is that so hard to understand? It looks to me like CCIA has always required a 24 hour notification period for tag sales but the fine is being introduced to ensure compliance. Your admission of failure to send some back within 5 months indicates the need. You know the program, you know the rules if that's too hard to comply with quit selling tags - you claim they didn't make you much anyway.
What happened to the "can do" attitude that the western Canadian cattle industry was supposed to be built on? It's fast turning into the "can't do so lets p@#$ and moan" attitude.

[Happytrails]

One more nail in the coffin for ID tagging. CFIA does not understand that it was goodwill that got ID tagging up to the current level. If the goodwill is lost and it sure looks like it is, then the program will collapse. Oh well, I guess we can start over again. HT

[ALLFARMER]

Great posts Sadie!

WE NEED TO MOVE TO THE AUSTRALIAN SYSTEM NOW!!!

Put the RFID pill in the cows butt and end of story.

We need to start a petition or letter campaign to the provincial and federal Ag ministers.

[SADIE]

gf---you asked a very good question. The timeline for a "dealer" to report sale date,indentification numbers and who the tags were sold to.

I was never a seller or a distributor so I did not Know the exact "language". This letter that went out March 16 2011 to sellers of these RFID eartags will certainly have many of those outlets reviewing the facts for themselves. The lettering is too weak to copy and post on Agriville.

Our local "small town co-op" has their annual meeting this Wednesday night and this will be brought up at there meeting as well as to whether they remain a retailer of RFID tags with this notice of $6000.00 fine for non-compliance within 24 hours. They cannot afford this fine.

I did take time this afternoon and visited with people that work in veterinary clinics and outlets discussing this exact letter.

Again there is some concern over the intepretation of the facts.

1)CFIA &/or CCIA personnel came around to these same outlets and veterinary clincs one year ago telling those "retailers" that it means 24 hours/ working day excluding weekends and holidays.

2)Many times and it continues to date that there is frequent web-sites down and data cannot be uploaded to the CCIA data bank at this time--OFten one -two days to upload the data.

3)The CCIA has had a huge history of "loosing data" during the rapid growing years of the agency. This has caused extreme distention to the CFIA.
These facts have come forward by CFIA veterinarians many times over the years in the circles I have had a privilege to be encountered within.

4)The practicing veterinarians---I still have a large group from my era in rural private practice are not very pleased now with CCIA not disclosing the fact that the RFID EARTAGS were only recommended for temperatures that do not meet Canadian Conditions. That wasn't disclosed when they signed up as "distributors", neither was the talk of fines to the $6000.00 mark.

5)A concern in Central Saskatchewan to distributors continue to rise. Why the need for 24 hour update to CCIA data bank now anyway. Cattlemen that did "age verify their calves" and this is recently have shipped to Swift Current Market, Saskatoon Market with their 'age verification" papers and were told by the order buyers and market staff-- KEEP THE PAPERS---There is no need for them now anyway there is no premium paid for "Age verification".

6)With the 24 months research of information that I have gathered regarding this whole RFID SAGA it is interesting to note that several times it is the TAG COMPANIES that came out to the producers place because of faulty RFID eartags reported and gave that producer new tags, pliers telling him YOU ARE THE FIRST PROBLEM, KEEP QUIET, DO NOT LET CCIA KNOW ABOUT THIS. Those producers reported problems when they used those replacement tags on the cattle when they were sold that the nos were never reported to CCIA data bank.

More exciting information to ad to the DVD production for the upcoming showings scheduled this spring.

When I see the exact 2-3 page contract or perhaps chalice will ad more to this information.