The view from the ground

[SADIE]

Gf,Gaucho--these pictures I took from the tracter yesterday. I have two paddocks (Pic 1)--30 acres on each side of the farm yard, home corrals that I put the cow-calf pairs out on high ground around end of March or early april. The cows are fed from free choice Bale feeders and whole oats in troughs on these two paddocks. With the heat yesterday you can start to see a touch of green grass. These groups will continue to be fed oats and Bales till about 15 of May to give the grass in the next two paddocks a chance to get ahead of the cows.

Once the groups are off these two paddocks the piles are harrowed with some N granular spread. Before the end of the summer there will be a chance to graze this again or bale these pieces.

My corrals are on a north facing slope and in the spring the cow-calf pairs I keep moving to higher ground pens and out on the hilltops like you see in this picture.

I am a full believer in grass management and utilize grassing patterns that work in the area around Garderner Dam.

The bale picture is on land that has 3 quarter section pivots just north of the home quarter. All the land is 4 wire perimeter fenced. Presently have one pivot with Alfalfa/orchard grass mixture. This pivot next to the yard has often been seed to Italian Rye Grass which allows great versatility in silage, baleing and then fall and winter grazing. What great protein in that Italian Rye grass. (Featured on the Prairie farm report--a few years ago)

GF---I have owned cow-calf pairs since 1970 and since 1996 been cow-calf--about 120 pairs since that time.

BTO----If I got at farming side of things night and day I would be done in 3 days. I do not have that big of cultivation land base to worry about.

[ALLFARMER]

Sadie - Good lookin place and can I borrow that tractor!

gaucho - I never got into farming to make a quick buck. Also I sold the 143 bred cows to buy land that came up for sale connected to mine. I could net get land financing FCC with the cow debt I had. Now with the old cows gone I got a loan with another lender AFSC for just over 3 percent money for 7 years. Rusting with drill stem is not a concern maybe a problem maybe my grandkids will have. Also now I have funds to buy another 2 quarters connected to mine comming up on auction this fall, so this year it is likely I will double my land base. The new fence enables me to bunk feed 300 cows or 500 calves. This gives me the option of feeding grain, shredded hay or straw and one day silage. I will photo bucket when I get it all installed. I don't take no for an answer. FCC lost over 170K of my business. Thinking also about building a 40x60 shop, piling 250 acres of bush and building 2.5 miles of fence this summer. I will be calving out over 200 next spring! Cheers

[chalice]

Interesting thread everyone. Sadie asked me for what I usually prescirbe but I think that every situation is unique and I don't have a standard treatment. I am in total agreement with Gaucho with his statement that it is much easier to prescribe a pharmaceutical treatment than get a producer to look at their management. Most people I work for would rather pay me for a pill than criticism.
Unfortunately in the western world most of our medicine is reactionary treatment of symptoms rather than the prevention of disease. There is more money in treating disease than preventing it. That is why we see two page ads in Cattleman's magazine for antibiotics and business card size ads for the vaccine that prevents the disease. That being said I beleieve there are times when we need to use antibiotics to treat disease and there are some instances when we have found ourselves in a situation where we need to use antibiotics to prevent disease.
My rule of thumb for myself and the producers that I work for is everytime antibiotics are given, treat it as a failure of management. How did I put myself in a position that required me to use my last resort?
I once attended a talk that was on the prudent use of antibiotics and the speaker described the 4 stages of healing.
1.) Stop the offending agent.
2.) Clean up the tissue.
3.) Repair the affected tissue.
4.) Return to function.
Antibiotics and vaccines may work on stage 1, but it is what occurs before that ultimately determines how stages 2,3 & 4 unfold. This is where environment, nutrition, genetics and other factors play a role. In my perfect world, the better we are at these factors the less time we will have to spend dealing with the healing end of things.
Sadie I have used your treatment.
Gaucho I usually give out criticism before I give out a pill.

[grassfarmer]

Good to hear it chalice, there are too many in the vet profession that are happy to be pimps for the drug companies. I was horrified to read the vet column in a recent Charolais Connections magazine by one of the leading vets in western Canada advocating mainly to maximise use of hormone implants and endectocides. He was saying the endectocides have become so much cheaper WE MUST use them more often. No regard to whether we need them, or need to use them more often.

I really detest the dumbing down of agriculture that has gone on in recent decades. Sidelining generations and millennia of farmer/rancher knowledge and experience with garbage labelled as "sound science" when it's anything but.
Trying to replace the skills of a cattle breeder with breeding by numbers using computer generated EPDs and taking no account of regional/resource adaptation. Grazing columns in magazines written by pesticide salesmen from DowAgro chemicals. And I'm sorry but I put vets into this category too when they are just pimping drugs or when they give advice on not veterinary farm management. I don't get diet advice from a trauma surgeon so why would I get advice from a vet on how to feed my cattle? The vets in most cases only see the wrecks and the problems and I don't expect them to have the knowledge to run a farm business - that is not their field of expertise. Sure their are farmers/ranchers that need to get better at their job but I've met vets that could stand some improvement too.

[gaucho]

Who would have thought that GF's pictures could turn the thread into such a debate... but I think some really well presented perspectives.... The only one I still can't figure out is Allfarmer... you have answered a lot of things that you intend on doing but you have forgot to mention the one most important in any ag business.... cash flow. I admire the plans but you have nothing to sell off those heifer still fall 2012.... clearing bush doesn't come cheap, the money for the shop, the feed bills, the repairs etc etc....Had you held on to your cows at least you would have something to sell this fall.

[T.N.T.]

My thought was exactly the same thing Gaucho?How do you go from selling your cow herd because you can't get financing to buy a 1/2 section of land.To now your buying in 1 year a section of land,over 200 heifers,building steel fence,building a shop and clearing 250 acres of bush?

[SADIE]

Grassfarmer---When you posted your 2 pictures of the snow cover April 24 it showed me an environmental situation that was somewhat abnomal and out of any cow-calf mans control.

IF you have a bunch of calves on the ground I showed you a possible concern. If they are still in the cow---no problem.

The object for all of us on this thread is to try and have a live calf by the cow as they go to grass this year with minimal imput cost.

Good management is the key to success on any ranch or farm when the operator is working and caring about preventing wrecks.

Chalice you mentioned on another thread that managing cow herds today includes some people having off farm jobs and working cattle on week-ends. In this area calving is Mar & April because May these producers become grain farmers and get on the land seeding crops. Ranchers with large numbers have the 500 plus cows out in larger areas and are beginning to calve on range.

The two biggest systematic problems that seem to cause problems in the calf 2 weeks old to 2 months of age is Intestinal

1)scours--loose backside, black and tarry backside, bloody backside.

2)full gut--bloat type--abomasal hairball, abomasal ulcer complex.

3)Calf pnuemonia---Pasturella sudden death.

4)Calf diptheria---necrotic laryngitis

When one recognizes each or any of the above the first thing ---don't you want to get out of the problem first? While treating or discovering the cause with necropsy then one might look at management change to avoid this another time.----would that be the common approach to agrivillers?

I mentioned two treatment drugs that worked during my years in practice and are still available today. Sulfamethazine boluses---tighten up the gut and are long-acting. Trivetrin another sulfa this is injectable that gives immediate high blood levels that target the lung and the intestine.

I haven't practiced for 16 years now but when in round-table discussions at the local implement coffee table the conversation often arises about giving penicillins or tetracyclines to the young calf in massive doses. This too concerns me because I still remind them that those are not the best of choice when dealing with that age of animal for those conditions.

My pictures have cattle out on a carpet with grass just starting to come because of the recent heat. My management practice experience is to keep moving cow-calf pairs as numbers increase and size of animal grows (calf) to bigger area---decrease the concentration rate. Hair ball stomach ulcer syndrome occurs when you put pairs out on stubble type of ground like the second picture.

My concern now for my cow-calf pairs is still spring Pasturella pneumonia which I believe becomes a concern with another spring weather problem and that is temps in the 20s daytime and the low temps down to 0 at night. This will encompass the entire herd and usually targets the bigger steer calves first. You might find them with pnuemonia or you will find them dead.

I still do a post-mortem on everything on my place and record the reason why death loss.

End of May is PFRA pasture delivery time. One has been seeding for 3 weeks and now getting pairs ready for pasture. Processing is often a family affair when help is home on weekends. Each animal is caught head and healled or on the calf cradle. Loose backside under the tail---What might you do--- you are not going to see this animal or catch it for a while. The entire calf crop in the catch pens you notice some of this going on. 2 calf spans or 3 if they are bigger might not be a bad management decision at that time is it.

PFRA pasture managers comment at the bi-annual pasture meetings continually about the time of roping calves, treating and finding dead calves during the first week after take in date.

Chalice---From a management perspective what change can be made for these continual recurring circumstances?

If you have to treat one of these calves most on agriville know you only want to catch and treat it once don't you?

[SADIE]

Correction--the two biggest systemic concerns in a young calf is intestinal and Lung (pneumonia).

[rookie]

Maybe he inherited a farm ...

or , maybe he works off the farm ...

or, maybe he works with his parents or siblings on the farm ...

or he might just be lucky at bingo ...

maybe that new land came from an uncle who sold it way below market value ...

but the most likely one , is that he is a psychiatrist and is secretly researching online chat pages for social skills possessed by farmers and ranchers and the correlation to intelligence . sigh .

but on a positive note, your seem to be a step above those grain fellas on this site, so keep it up. and I am sure as the snow continues to melt the view will improve ...

[per]

When land that you want (near, irrigated etc) comes up for sale is not usually in your control so you do what you have to do to make it happen. I get that. Selling the factory (cows)makes it difficult to pay for the land the factory is on. Hard for me also to get past Gaucho's point on the heifers. A second calving cow or pair is always a better buy in my opinion. A coupon to clip, a look at how functional her bag feet etc are and less calving difficulties. Plus as an added bonus, less bull choosing risk. Good for you however to have a plan to expand and to be able to act on it.