At the risk of starting a big brawl.....

[kato]

Just gotta toss out some thoughts here.

Here's the setup.....We background calves. Have done so for thirty plus years. In the past few years, in general, the Angus influence has grown in the cattle population in general.

That being said, I have the following observations to make.

Under an identical management system, over the same past few years we are seeing a drop in weight gain on the average of about a quarter of a pound a day measured over a fairly large number of calves, not just a small batch. This has been consistent for the past four or five years. We always had a 2.4 to 2.5 pound gain on the exotics, while now it's closer to 1.9 to 2.1 on the more Angus groups. The feed consumption has not changed. They eat the same amount of feed, and we've got weigh scale tickets to prove that. We buy prepared pellets, so there's no fooling ourselves on the feed costs.

We are also finding a larger spread in the gain on individual calves. We buy them in within 20 to 30 pounds in weight, and after 150 days, as of this morning when we weighed them, the spread was 300 pounds from the best to the poorest. Inconsistency is rampant.

Toss in the crackpots who smashed their faces into gates on the way out of the scale, the one who actually climbed the side and jumped out over the top, and the ones who came back to attack, and I must say my liking for the Angus breed is not very high this afternoon.

I just can't get why these cattle are so popular.

At least they don't have horns.....

[perfecho]

If you need some easy doin Gelbvieh genetics, that cross well with..............;-)
I have been saying it will catch up sooner or later, and I think later has come, although you have to give them highest honors for their marketing.

[wilagro]

Like any other breed, there are animals from certain bloodlines that are feistier than others SO I HAVE BEEN TOLD. Some people like my Dad for example regarded the Angus cattle as fence crawling trouble-makers...others loved them.

You will not get consensus on this forum about Angus or any other breed...there are just too many who are convinced that they are right and others are wrong.

If these observations of yours are of concern, I would look into feed quality issues first and rule that out before looking at the other aspects of management.

From my own observation...there are certainly variations in temperament among animals of the same breed. Maybe your getting some rogues...who knows, we are not privy to all of your statistics. Keep plugging away...maybe a clearer picture will evolve as time goes on or perhaps the next lot will surprise you and alter all of your conclusions.

[kato]

I don't see the feed being an issue. We buy the same ration time and time again. It's made by the feed mill, and needs to meet quality standards. As well,I'm comparing this over probably close to 1600 head, so I'm pretty sure it's not one random batch. The only thing that's changed has been the breeding of the calves.

We have friends who have gone to backgrounding exotic heifers rather than the high priced steers on the market now, and they're finding the performance to be as good and sometimes better than the steers.

[smcgrath76]

In any breed there is huge variation.
If you are buying calves in they could
even be coming from very few herds with
large differences in performance between
sires, even within the same herd. I
hear you on the feed thing. Selection
for easy calving and nice looking (fat)
genetics has made a difference over time
I think. Also, with the need to reduce
labour at the cow/calf level I think
that selection for performance has eased
off. Since most C/C folks don't feed
their calves, they won't notice feed
efficiency changing, and it is also darn
hard to select for.
Also, if they are known AN cattle that
is different than known black cattle.
And for a final blasphemy, I think a lot
of folks who sell calves off the cow
really don't give a rat's behind about
anything past the end of their own
loading chute.

[smallguy]

Just to add my two cents, my dad always said that if your cattle operation was a survival of strong operation, then angus was the breed to have. Best dam mothers in the world. If you have a desire to be with your cattle lots, then angus cattle will eventually shorten your life span. Only you can make that decision. Sometimes money is not always top priority in what you do.

[kato]

I wonder if the BIX program will ever get going to the point that cow calf producers actually get some feedback. I think there may be some eyes opened there.

[smcgrath76]

I agree and disagree with you kato.
I think if BIXS gets rolling we will see
a lot of good cowherds damaged seeking
traits that don't impact the bottom line
for straight cow/calf guys.
The system is adversarial between
sectors. If you sell weaned calves in a
pre-sort the best thing your cattle can
be is the desirable weight of the day
and the same frame score/color as
everyone else's.
I think it really only has opportunity
for those looking to do something
different than the status quo.

[ag-boy]

yes agree with kato the angus are not gainers like the crossbreds results in 4-Hcalves show charlay cross doing better on rate of gain .
feedlot show same result all over 3 lbs rate of gain on crossbreds,
the pure black angus breed stay behind in rate of performance,on pasture gain and getting fat to soon for there size
in the feedlot
we have some modern bred angus coming up so watch you buying of calves !!!!!

[kato]

I'm not sure what damage would be done to a cow herd chasing traits that improve carcass results. Which traits are those?

Calving ease? Milking? ????

I think it's possible to have ease of calving, good weaning weights, and a good carcass result all in one herd. People who finish their own calves know it can be done, because they are very likely doing it now.

[smcgrath76]

that's exactly the word kato - chasing.
All things in balance, and a good
crossbreeding system overcomes a lot of
the issues. For example, genetics for
performance and lean yield come at a
cost to fertility (as does milk beyond
environmental capacity). On the other
hand genetics for ease of fleshing and
ease of calving (eg: birthweight) often
come at the expense of performance.
Selection for marbling will reduce yield
if not done in balance, etc.
Balance. Balance. Balance.

[tman]

Crackpots? Good indication that there's some improvement to be made in your stockmanship, as in with everyone's including my own.

[ASRG]

I think smcgrath has the right approach with the "balance" thing. The industry as a whole usually follows trends to extremes....we chase one trait too far until it starts to raise problems.
For example the pursuit of long framey cattle that gained a lot and had high lean meat yield led to a lot of problems: high feed costs, longevity,fertility issues, and quite often a lack of eating satisfaction from the consumer?
By crossing back to angus(and others) some of these issues were addressed and corrected, but at a cost as the angus genetics became more prevalent?
At the end of the day the gene mix of your cattle is something you have to be able to live with? You might have to realize you won't get the top price if you don't choose the genetics that optomize production for the feeding industry? At the same time the feeder must realize if he wants those super productive feeder cattle he will have to pay more?
There are always options.
I do agree with Kato that generally speaking angus type calves will not produce like the Char or Sim calves in feedlot performance. I think her "on farm" conclusions are fairly accurate and probably reflect the concerns of cattle feeders?
The cow/calf producer needs to be aware that his customer needs cattle that will make money? He needs to understand how he can fill that need without undermining his own needs?
Like Sean said it is all about balance.

[kato]

I agree. Well said.

As for the crackpot issue... Our own cattle are not like this. A lot of the calves we buy are not like this.

However.... there are some feeders out in the pen that as soon as they came off the truck, we knew they'd never laid eyes on a human, other than at the auction mart. You can just tell by looking at them that they are basically feral cattle.

This low maintenance, low handling management protocol that's so popular these days has one major drawback, and that's the fact that these cattle are not handled. You can be as slow and quiet as you like, but it's not going to calm them down if they panic whenever they feel confined. When you open the front of the chute, they come out like rockets, no matter how gentle you are getting them in there.

We've also observed over the years that the wild ones are not the ones who gain either. It's the ones who are calm, quiet, and sensible who perform the best. I believe there have been studies done that prove the quiet ones produce the most tender beef as well.

[tman]

That's why it's just as important to work or train our livestock just like we do our horses or dogs. No average person hops on a horse to go do a job or compete that has never been handled and trained before. Like wise with working/service dogs of any kind or just pets for that matter. Some animals take more time and more patience and more training but the end result is attainable. At that point, working with animals of any sort becomes very enjoyable, among other things.