Pharo Cattle

[grassfarmer]

Maybe the biggest thing I've learnt over there is the
genetic truth of trait antagonisms. 90% of the
purebred industry is selling the dream that you can
have it all with no negative consequences and that
just isn't true. Yes, I value longevity and I've quit
being disappointed with some of these cows that
get to 10 years old and have yet to turn in a calf
above herd average weaning weight - that's the
tradeoff for longevity. Weaning 50 or 60% of the
dams weight has never been an aim of mine but if it
was I would have to accept the cows wouldn't last in
my system because they are giving more milk than
nature and my system will support.
If you want to use Pharo cattle to reduce cow size
that's fine but expect the consequence to be
smaller, slower growing calves. If you want smaller
and heavy fleshed cows expect lower weaning
weights due to decreased milk as well as the
decreased growth and also lower fertility. Once I
learnt that for every action there is a consequence
and that there are no free meals in cattle breeding
everything became clearer and simpler. If only the
other 90% of the purebred industry would accept
that too and work within the constraints of natural
law and what is possible with genetics instead of
selling dreams wrapped in marketing BS to
commercial buyers maybe we could achieve more
truly efficient beef production?

[gaucho]

I have to agree with GF....But I must
applaud Kit for his marketing efforts
through newsletters, weekly emails and
his god save the world speeches. He is
good at repeating his message and I
guess connecting with peoples fears and
using that to market his product. Yes
many of his philosophies make sense...
yet he should retain ownership of some
of his frame 3 cattle... Hard to make
money on cattle that finish at 1100 lbs.
If you have ever seen or met some of the
God Fearing rancher soles he sells to in
the US its no wonder he has his
following....People that live in fear
are easy to herd and turn into
followers.... criticize or challenge the
leader and you get banished from the
island.
WD40 check out our website
www.spiritviewranch.com or check out
Ians... both of us have 100% grass /
grain free programs where cattle have to
work for a living in a Canadian Climate.
I would even venture to say these
programs even have some genetic breeding
beyond one generation. I don't think you
need to go stateside to find low maintenance cattle, however I guess
Canadians always like navel gaze to
Americans.

[WSS]

Or New Zealanders Christoph?

Actually my Pinebank 14'02 daughters are very nice cows. All bred first cycle AI, raised good calves, held their flesh and bred in first cycle again. All while running with cows on fall stubble and restricted winter rations. I would also add that I think they will be lighter mature weight cows than my Pharo bred females, and the cattle are much more consistent in type.

You are also correct about there being many good low input breeders in Western Canada. As I said in a previous post to WD45 he would be better buying from one of these breeders than going to the US. I have also found bulls in Alberta that will moderate mature size more consistently than the Pharo bulls, out of cows that are moderate enough for my liking. He can always use AI if he want's to try different genetics.

[grassfarmer]

Tells a story if the Pinebank x cows are lighter
mature weight and more consistent type than the
Pharo sired ones. Maybe the effect of actually having
a breeding program - and then sticking to it for 60
years?
Pharo advocates can produce some carcass data
when pushed Gaucho - I think there were two
groups of 6 frame cattle they fed out a number of
years back to show 1400lb carcasses that graded
well. They just pretend that's what the 2 and 3
frame bulls will produce.

One thing the original poster might want to enquire
of Pharo - if he is such a believer in low input
ranching why are the bulls priced so high? Why
would a low input rancher pay $6000 when there
are plenty others that would do the same or better
job for $2000?

[WSS]

I don't know what frame those feeder calves were, but if they were Pharo bulls crossed with conventional cows they would have gotten bigger. I think a good portion of the small frame PCC bulls are probably not that small without the restricted diets. As many have pointed out, he is using mainstream genetics and not really line breeding to set that small frame.

I think Magua is advertised as a 2.5 or 3 frame bull, but he certainly didn't breed that consistently on my cows. They were big growthy calves for the most part, and most of the bulls had 200 day weights over and around 700 lbs. I used the Johnny B Good bull and had much more consistency in type and frame. That bull has a little more PCC breeding in him and some older more moderate genetics. The calves have some muscle and are very attractive.

However, I have used two walking bulls that have done a much more consistent job in moderating frame and setting type. One of them comes from what most people would consider a show herd, but like smcgrath said you can find the right type of bulls in Canada too.

[smcgrath76]

The challenge with what is often sold as
the grass type is that unless you have a
specific market, they often sell at a
steep discount into conventional
production. Conversely if your costs are
lower, you don't need as high a price and
you are taking less risk on each calf, but
if you don't have a good market for those
small framed cattle, you can have a
challenge.

[grassfarmer]

That's a point that is often conveniently overlooked
in the marketing of these small frame Pharo cattle.
Much is made of the fact that 400lb calves at
$1.80/lb bring almost as much money as 600lb
calves at $1.15. Sure when you look at the market
reports these price spreads may look realistic but in
reality a 400lb calf that is fat and small framed like
it will never grow will usually sell for substantially
less that a 400lb calf that is green, young and has
the potential to grow into the same animal as it's
600lb herd mate.
Even more so in the US where many of the states
have a grading system at the auctions to sort the
calves before sale. I forget the different grades and
descriptions they use but needless to say the small
frame "puds" are usually severely discounted despite
them being lightweights.
Still why spoil a good marketing strategy with facts?

The volume of BS just gets too confusing - a
program that touts small frame cattle that are low
maintenance as the objective yet cull cows if they
can't wean 50 or 60% of the dams weight. Then we
learn that they maybe aren't genetically small
anyway, only underfed to make them appear small,
apart from the ones that are larger because they
don't in fact come from the small frame size bulls -
because they are really just one generation removed
from the same old, same old genetics of the
mainstream.
Just look at the Angus semen inventory bulls on
their website - mostly OCC breeding with a good
dash of the common Angus bulls of the day thrown
in. Milk EPDs in the 15 to 20 range on some that are
claimed to sire easy keeping kind of cows.
I loved this gem about a Lowline sire called Machine
"We have used Machine on our 6-frame cows to
produce thick, easy-fleshing, 3-frame offspring —
in one generation" Really? Kit has 6 frame cows?
how did that happen? If you have a 6 frame cow is
the most efficient way to produce beef from it to
breed it to something that produces a 3 frame calf?
I'd rather breed her terminal Charolais.
If the objective of breeding it miniature is to sell
purebred frame score 3 bulls aren't you just conning
the buyer? how likely is it to breed a 3 frame calf?

[rkaiser]

One of many advantages that we have producing protein from this species of animals called cattle is that variety gives us options.

The other thing is that managing a cow herd, or cow herder, is not as easy for a multinational company as managing a chicken herd, a pig herd, a fish herd, etc. etc.

Even chicken herders and pig herders are finding ways to survive outside the conventional markets and are doing it with variety, not similarity.

I know this thread is about Kit Pharo cattle and I can not comment much as I have virtually no experience with his cattle. However. talk of judging cattle as pudgy, or slow growing led me to jump in.

Bringing carcass size down by breeding small cattle to large cattle and visa versa is still gearing production toward conventional marketing. I realise that is the only choice for most right now and seems to even be the way of some of the non conventional marketing groups.

Asking the consumer what he/she would like rather than growing what we feel makes the most sense and telling them that is all we have is a mindset that is still the same as the multinational companies that control our industry.

Innovative marketing and taking advantage of the diversity of the cattle species will allow for the industries survival in an ever controlling multinational "product" world.

[gaucho]

Hey Reed if you were implying that I was navel gazing at the New Zealanders I would say quite the contrary although it is refreshing working with guys that come from a country without subsidies. The reason why we went with what we did was we wanted to be involved in a breeding program that had concentrated on grass based low maintenance genetics and that had a solid breeding program behind it and that did not just breed on phenotype but had a true genotype. Cattle that bred true and consistent and were not a cross of combining two extremes like our American Bible thumper rancher does...although again hats off to his marketing. These cattle are not smaller than a 4.5 frame score and the top end don't do into a frame 6... they stay steady in between. They have guts which means they have a great back, which means they have good carcass yield. Finally because of how they are used as part of a grazing system in New Zealand that follows the sheep and that have to perform on the worst of the pastures, the fact they are given no supplementation, bred under a closed herd line bred program for 60 plus years that did not follow fads but rather internal performance .... that's why we went with what we did and why I am confident in these cattle. I looked in a lot of places but did not see anyone doing that her in North America with those kind of objectives.

[WSS]

Christoph, yes I was implying that you were navel gazing, but just teasing.

I'm very happy with how the Pinebank 14'02 daughters are doing this far in their young lives.

[gaucho]

Just wanted to make it clear. Many can be swayed by hype and I guess that is what some do for marketing but its really important to ask the questions and dissect the information... seems the Scottish are good at that

[RShields]

I keep thinkin if I was only in cattle for a relatively short time and I was selling as many bulls to the faithful as I could raise AND they were willing to pay $4000 for them...
Should I cull for only the best or should I take advantage of all that good marketing.
It appears to me that when most of the popular breeding stock suppliers find they don't have enough supply to fill demand they quickly buy breds and calve out bulls that carry their prefix for their next sale.
There are more than a few really good breeders out there. Some of the best know a lot more about breeding than marketing and seem to be happy with that.