Pharo Cattle

[WSS]

Just bumping to the top. WD40 asked about someone using Pharo genetics and I have used two bulls trough AI. I responded to the thread, but it is quite a bit down the page now.

[AllisWD45]

That would have been me. I was wondering how the
Pharo bulls stand up in Western canadian conditions
and are they as tough and easy keeping as claimed.
Do they do what Pharo claims they are capable of?
I had cattle all of my life and coddled purebreds to
make a saleable product and did well but was not
convinced i was doing any of my customers a
service. I was getting tired of the game and found
someone interested and sold out early.
I now do other things but as a hobby i am working
with outside of the "box" type stuff such as
intensive grazing, low stress handling, electric
fencing designs and different marketing strategies.

I would like to buy a small herd of Pharo type cattle
and push the envelope for low cost ranching to the
limits and create a "model" that might work
anywhere even in Western Canada. My own personal
hands on research farm.

I am struggling with is now the time to get into this
project or wait. Calf prices at all time highs and
cows relatively reasonable priced to that. Of course
like most others i got kicked hard in the ass by BSE
and am undecided. I can easily afford to lose what i
would invest but thats wouldnt be the point . I
guess in my own mind i want to know if those type
of cattle and that management system could stand
the test in our enviornment. Thats why i am asking
opinions from people who have hands on exposure
to this.

[smcgrath76]

Take a look at our website and give me a
ring...
www.roundrockranching.com
I think the Pharo "type" of cattle can
work here.

[WSS]

I don't have any straight Pharo genetics. I have AI'ed my cows to Magua and Johnny B Good. Generally I like the calves, but I wouldn't say that they are significantly different to the other cattle I am raising. Having said that I am trying to select for smaller framed easier doing cattle in my herd

[WSS]

my reply got cu toff for some reason.

I have also started with a mixed herd and bred from there, so it is a longer process.

There are some outfits in Canada that can provide you with the genetics to go low input if that's what you want to do. Getting females from those guys would be the easiest for start-up and then you could AI or source bulls from where ever you want.

In the end a person can make any cattle work or not work. Just depends where you want to draw the line nutritionally and what other criteria you cull for.

It is easier to talk about this stuff that to type so if you want to give me a call that would be easier. I am full of opinions and always enjoy talking cattle. Reed Rigney 780-348-5308

[WSS]

smcgrath76, I don't want to sound rude here, but I checked the website, and all I see are conventionally fed herd bulls and reference sires (ie: lots of grain & silage), from conventional programs with conventional pedigrees.

I don't know anything about your program other than what is on the website, and I'm not saying that these type of bulls cannot produce the type of cattle that AllisWD45 is asking about, but it is much harder to identify the bulls in those programs that will.

Of the bulls that you are using, which are producing 1200 lb frame 3 to 4 frame cows at maturity?

[smcgrath76]

The bulls we buy are usually from
conventional programs, but our program
is not conventional. We don't feed
grain, we graze prairie until the end of
January, we swath graze cows and feeder
calves and we bale graze a bit. To be
fair, we do put out mineral.
The point is that there are a lot of
genetics that can work in a very low
input system that aren't marketed as
such. It is important to understand
what you want to accomplish and to push
the limits all the time.
If you think you can come to our
operation and see the cows it usually
requires either a horse or some good
luck.

[grassfarmer]

My opinion on Pharo is its the biggest BS program
out there. He could market ice to eskimos but he is
no cattle breeder. Lets face it it's really only a
marketing program for "cooperator cattle" grown all
over the country - different types, different
environments, different breeds, different sizes. I
see they market bulls with 600lb weaning weights
as well as sub 400lb weaning weights. Many of the
cattle are just mainstream genetics anyway - put
together herds bred one generation to Pharo bulls
to produce the miracle progeny. Do you think these
bulls will breed true to their one generation deep
phenotype?
If you want to start a Pharo herd he has his culls for
sale now - the ones that bred back late, the ones
that suckle other cows and they start at only $1800.
Poor enough to be culled from his program but
good enough for some other suckers to buy. I
spoke to someone in Canada using his genetics
who told me they certainly calved easy - but they
never grew. Also they were so slick haired they
struggled with winter under our conditions. I would
say "buyer beware" with this program.

[smcgrath76]

For the record one of my concerns with
"Grass cattle" is that the selection is
extreme the other way. I agree that
frame 8 or 9 cattle don't work well on
grass, but a moderate 5 to 6 seem to
work pretty well around here. I get
concerned when folks select for type
over substance (although type is part of
substance).
As an example, the genetics we use are
not necessarily grass genetics but our
cows do surprisingly well on just grass.
The other advantage is that our calves
have a lot of marketing channels
including enough frame and growth to go
on feed, or grass as yearlings. Our
replacements don't come from the same
sire breeding as our feeder/grasser
cattle because they are different
products with different roles and goals.
A lot of the grass cattle I see marketed
as such do not contain the qualities
that I think are redeeming ones in our
operation, but some of them do. A lot
of the non-grass fed cattle don't fit
here either. We rely very heavily on
EPD, ultrasound and visual inspection to
make our purchasing decisions.
Cattle that are selected in any
direction with a complete abandonment of
common sense for the purpose of
marketing are not that useful. In the
middle of the road the trend hits you
both ways.
There are only 2 kinds of cattle. Ones
that make money and ones that don't.
The first group is the place to focus.

[WSS]

Ian, I agree with you in one respect. He is a marketer just like all the other marketing programs out there. I wouldn't say he is the biggest BS'er out there, I think there are many that would fall into the same category. Kit just seems to polarize people.

However his message on economics is not wrong. We could argue back and forth about what the exact size of a cow should be, but at the end of the day the smaller cows in a persons herd are generally more profitable from a commercial cow/calf persepective. The old research said somewhere in 1200-1300 range I beleive, but again that was in a specific environment.

At the end of the day you must select an system for your cattle to work under and then let the system select the most profitable cattle. Then you need to set that type.

[grassfarmer]

If I were giving out BS breeder awards he'd be right
up there with the Leachmans. He does seem to
polarize people - It's the unattractive mixture of
using religion to sell cattle while at the same time
sending threatening personal emails to anyone that
dares criticize his program on the internet that
turns me off the most.

Some of his economic stuff is good - I like the low
cost ranching model, always did long before I had
heard of Kit. Profitable and efficient cows come in
more than one size and type as far as I can see.

I'm not clear what you mean - "At the end of the day
you must select an system for your cattle to work
under and then let the system select the most
profitable cattle. Then you need to set that type."

Why do you need the last sentence?
If you let the system select the most profitable cattle
won't that be your type? I'd be real careful setting
out to try and set that perceived "best type" -
especially if it involves using small framed, heavy
fleshed bulls. If you want to experiment with the
concept try using the OCC Angus cattle.
If you want to talk cattle genetics with some really
knowledgeable guys with a different perspective
head over to Keeney's Corner (keeneyscorner.com)
I've learnt more in a couple of years there than in
my lifetime up until now.

[WSS]

Iain, I have read a lot of what is on Keeneys corner. It's too bad that many of posters can't help but be mean spirited and smart asses, or maybe it's just frustration. There is a lot of good information to mull over that is for sure.

I guess what I mean by setting type is breeding your best to your best, and including some line breeding in there to truly get some consistency in your system. Again best is subjective, but longevity is one of my keys to "best" as I think it is with you. To produce a long time they have to meet the bar every year within your system as you have defined it.

Having said that I definitely still have trouble with the crow mentality; chasing after shining things sometimes.

[grassfarmer]

Maybe the biggest thing I've learnt over there is the
genetic truth of trait antagonisms. 90% of the
purebred industry is selling the dream that you can
have it all with no negative consequences and that
just isn't true. Yes, I value longevity and I've quit
being disappointed with some of these cows that
get to 10 years old and have yet to turn in a calf
above herd average weaning weight - that's the
tradeoff for longevity. Weaning 50 or 60% of the
dams weight has never been an aim of mine but if it
was I would have to accept the cows wouldn't last in
my system because they are giving more milk than
nature and my system will support.
If you want to use Pharo cattle to reduce cow size
that's fine but expect the consequence to be
smaller, slower growing calves. If you want smaller
and heavy fleshed cows expect lower weaning
weights due to decreased milk as well as the
decreased growth and also lower fertility. Once I
learnt that for every action there is a consequence
and that there are no free meals in cattle breeding
everything became clearer and simpler. If only the
other 90% of the purebred industry would accept
that too and work within the constraints of natural
law and what is possible with genetics instead of
selling dreams wrapped in marketing BS to
commercial buyers maybe we could achieve more
truly efficient beef production?

[gaucho]

I have to agree with GF....But I must
applaud Kit for his marketing efforts
through newsletters, weekly emails and
his god save the world speeches. He is
good at repeating his message and I
guess connecting with peoples fears and
using that to market his product. Yes
many of his philosophies make sense...
yet he should retain ownership of some
of his frame 3 cattle... Hard to make
money on cattle that finish at 1100 lbs.
If you have ever seen or met some of the
God Fearing rancher soles he sells to in
the US its no wonder he has his
following....People that live in fear
are easy to herd and turn into
followers.... criticize or challenge the
leader and you get banished from the
island.
WD40 check out our website
www.spiritviewranch.com or check out
Ians... both of us have 100% grass /
grain free programs where cattle have to
work for a living in a Canadian Climate.
I would even venture to say these
programs even have some genetic breeding
beyond one generation. I don't think you
need to go stateside to find low maintenance cattle, however I guess
Canadians always like navel gaze to
Americans.

[WSS]

Or New Zealanders Christoph?

Actually my Pinebank 14'02 daughters are very nice cows. All bred first cycle AI, raised good calves, held their flesh and bred in first cycle again. All while running with cows on fall stubble and restricted winter rations. I would also add that I think they will be lighter mature weight cows than my Pharo bred females, and the cattle are much more consistent in type.

You are also correct about there being many good low input breeders in Western Canada. As I said in a previous post to WD45 he would be better buying from one of these breeders than going to the US. I have also found bulls in Alberta that will moderate mature size more consistently than the Pharo bulls, out of cows that are moderate enough for my liking. He can always use AI if he want's to try different genetics.