Bulls are fairly pricey this year?

[smcgrath76]

GF - While I agree with you that $
doesn't always equal quality I disagree
with your logic. "If you can't sell a
bull for $2000 what are you doing" I
would argue if you can't sell a calf for
$400 what are you doing? If you are
getting more than that then great, but
why should you take $400 if you can get
more...
What proof is there that a bull is
better? What information and background
do you want when you buy a bull? That
his BW was less than 80 pounds? That he
weighed a lot at weaning? We ask a lot
of our bull suppliers, they deliver what
we want and I don't begrudge paying for
it.
I see a lot of bulls flogged out at
various price ranges (some really
expensive and some really cheap) and I
see bulls that come from breeding
programs and there is a big difference.
A documented, high quality breeding
program is a lot of work, so why would
you work for the lowest price point?
We demand EPD, pedigree documentation,
ultrasound, structural soundness,
breeding soundness, etc. in our bulls.
I believe that is a tall order for $2000
or $2500.

[grassfarmer]

Short answer to "why?" Sean is because I do it for the love of the cattle, producing better ones, more consistantly and not being driven by ones which attract the highest monetary compensation.

How good is the proof you are buying? I know that some of the highest $ bulls selling in Calgary today come from herds that routinely falsify their birthweights and tolerate cows with udders and feet so bad I'd cull them from my commercial herd.
A lot of the guys selling outcrossed bulls and crossbred bulls it doesn't really matter what the bulls figures and statistics are they have damn little chance of reproducing it in their offspring because there is no predictability to pass on.
Each to their own but this is a prime case of where commercial cattle producers squander money and it doesn't square with being an "efficient, low cost rancher" in my book.
I've always had the view that cows are cows and if you can't burn the papers and make them pencil selling them by the pound they are probably not worth their "purebred" status.
The problem with 90% of the purebred sector in my opinion is they are so money driven, it's all about marketing and not about breeding.

[perfecho]

Why would I sell a bull for $2000 when I can make that in butchering him, at least in the current market place.
People who market $2000 bulls do not have the market corned on honesty and integrity.
I have done well on lower priced bulls at times, however if a bull is what I want for my program, I will pay.
What people will pay is the true value.

[smcgrath76]

I think the long lived programs, built
on repeat buyers demonstrate value. I
think there are also a lot of programs
built on hype and not substance, but I
don't think you should penalize others
for commanding good $ from the
commercial industry.
As for the folks that are dishonest or
have poor cattle, they are not in it for
the long haul unless they find new
customers every year, no matter what the
price they sell for.
I believe in numbers but the most
important aspect of a good bull is who
you are buying it from.

[grassfarmer]

"What people will pay is the true value"
The true monetary value within a system largely based on marketing maybe - but certainly not the true genetic value.

"People who market $2000 bulls do not have the market corned on honesty and integrity."
True enough - but they usually have less at stake. A lot of the purebred guys buying high priced genetics as seedstock have the "too big to fail" attitude. When that $7000 show winning heifer turns out to be a disapointing speciman they still ship her off to the ET place to flush her and sell offspring off "the $7000 heifer" to recoup some of their cost. That does the industry a lot of harm.

[DogPatch]

So what if you only plan to breed 15 heifers. If you look after that bull for 4 to 5 years, and breed 25 cows a yr, then your breeding investment (before overhead) is only $20 per cow. That CHEAP! And then you get about 40% back on a cull bull market.

How much does the Nitrogen and supplies cost you?

[perfecho]

Have reports back from commercial cattleman who have paid the 5 and 6000 dollars and are very pleased with the results and looking for siblings. Have customers who regularily call and have me chose their bulls. Have talked perspective buyers out of an animal because of certain flaws. Have also had people who were not happy with their purchase and I have worked with them. Have sold $2000 bulls and lower, when I had to, however I feel the industry is better than that now.
Yes, the PB industry can be full of its games, however every industry has its shortcomings and "players"....even the grass industry.The purebred industry is what you make it, not what it makes you. If $2000 is a good number for your operation, great.....all the more power to you. It's like me saying all Scottish people are cheap.....errrr on second thought......;-)(My apologies, but I couldn't resist)

[grassfarmer]

That's like saying Gelbvieh breeders are proud of
their breed!! Took the "yellow breed" and crossed it
with Angus to try and gain market acceptance then
when that didn't work they cross them with Angus
again and sell them as "Balancers".
Sorry couldn't resist ;o)
I don't understand why if the breeders wanted to
hitch a ride on the Angus popularity bus they didn't
just sell the Gelbvieh and buy Angus. Applies to a
lot of breeds other than Gelbvieh too.

[perfecho]

I do believe that is market driven, even though the Gelbvieh are cleaner, red, black and blonde and the frame score is less than Angus, they certainly aren't Angus....although I will agree that many Balancers are. And the Angus increased their frame score to capture some market share they were losing.....life goes on.
When red bulls sold better, I supplied darker red bulls, when calving ease was making its mark, I moved there as well. I believe the trend is now to heavier, more production animals and I am now offering that. However, I still focus on some constants……..easy fleshing, easy going, moderate framed, functional animals.
And now I am starting my new venture for a totally different reason and a totally different market.....Lowlines, which are probably truer Angus than any other.....so GF, you can have the last laugh, because no real cattleman would raise those "goats" ;-)

[grassfarmer]

I wouldn't laugh at Lowlines, no reason to. I just
wish breeders would look up the definition of
"breed" and then abide by that. Breeds should have
distinguishing characteristics which they can
reproduce consistently. If you want extreme
marbling from an Angus base don't spend 20 years
changing the breed to get it - use a Wagyu. If you
need yield and growth use a Charolais. Constantly
chasing fads and $$ and trying to stack all the
characteristics in one "super" animal never works.
Keep pure breeds pure, refined for their desirable
characteristics and cross breed at the commercial,
production level. It's the simplest, most efficient
way to produce beef.