Changing of the farming landscape in this area 2012

[SADIE]

Came in from sitting on the combine and really enjoyed the good points brought out on threads following this morning post. I can see that I am not alone in my thoughts and observations.

On the combine I listen to the news all day and read the commodity post at night as well. I will remain a MIXED FARMING OPERATION TO TRY TO SPREAD OUT RISK. "SURVIVAL ON THIS FARM".

Perfecto--Your comment is my same thought and age old but each time the pendulum swings back and forth the highs and lows seem to keep getting higher (unreachable) or low to the point of (No recovery).
What has to happen to stimulate a cow-calf recovery. The mixed family farm is still more effecent than the big corporate farms and ranches IMHO.

SMGrath--your comment that herds keep getting bigger and more keep exiting the cattle business I have heard for many years now. This is true but only to a point. When one looses the 10-15 smaller operations in an area and one gets a little bigger there is still a net loss of cow numbers.

The Outlook and Watrous areas we have watched all our lives being we are from these areas. The Outlook area has the irrigation and since the mid-70s one has seen many "outsiders" come in and are going to show the locals how to farm and how to irrigate and make big $$$. So many Alberta fortunes have gone broke over the years. The last major influence was the potato industry in this area that brought in the power house of IRVING OIL with CAVENDISH POTATOES. These people stood on my land and were trying to tell me what I should do and expand for them. It took only 7 years and they pulled out of the area.

The latest big movement of Albertans, BC and other investors coming in buying the Saskatchewan cultivation land, block it up and seed to grass one is going to watch very closely now. Right now it is the craze for growing canolas and cereals that are driving the land prices 25% higher than last years record highs. Unheard of land price escalations in the last 3 years. Lets see how long this former cultivation land which has just been fenced and seeded to grass will keep cows on it.

One good point is that I am hearing and reading that as Ottawa wants to download the PFRA pastures to the provinces at least they are following criteria that could help sustain some cow-calf industry. THis fall after take out there is meetings in this area with the present remaining patrons on input on how the province is looking at these lands.

[grassfarmer]

This chemical agriculture scares me. Was down in
Montana last month and went for miles past zero-till,
chemical treated grain crops and there was not a bird
to be seen. No songbirds, no magpies not even
ravens, crows or hawk types - looks to me like there
wasn't anything for them to live on.
I see the natural progression on the prairies being
Hutterite expansion - they seem to have a system
that works better than most and the desire to keep on
in agriculture.
The biggest thing that scares me is if Dr Huber's
predictions on the glyphosate sterilizing the soils
comes true - it would wipe out modern farming as it
is practised today. I saw an end dump semi load full
of empty chemical jugs at the local colony - that's a
lot of poison.

[grefer]

Maybe I am wrong but didn't alot of this not really get accelerated when government decided ethanol was the way to go.I am getting to detest the direction agriculture has gone in my lifetime.For those farming huge amounts of land with gps systems and auto steer on their new or relatively new tractors,sprayers,combines etc.etc.,it all seems great and if you suggest otherwise you are a fool.Would farming look so great without the subsidies through the ethanol industry and support programs like agristability etc?I don't think so.We decided to go organic in 2005 because we felt we were losing control of the direction our farm was going.Are there problems with weeds?Yes.Are there challenges with keeping tillage reduced?Yes.Can I grow as much grain per acre as the large grain producer?Not usually.Do I feel there are solutions to these problems if we fricking look?Absolutely.The wonderful thing about it is that livestock are a strong component of the solution.We all win....except of course those selling all the imputs to todays conventional farmers.

[kato]

You're not wrong. You're spot on. Things have been changing in agriculture for a hundred years, but I think there have been more changes during our time than all the others added up together.

When we started out all our neighbours were farming. Mostly mixed, medium sized farms. Now we have five grain outfits farming the land of at least sixty families. Most of the cattle and all of the hogs are gone. Even some of the former "big" farmers are gone. They've been replaced by the "really big" farms. How massive can farms get? With the cost of equipment and inputs, how large does it have to be to make it work?

How hard does a person have to work to make a living?

And how hard does a person want to work???

[kato]

Just checked out Harry Siemen's blog. There's some pretty scarey stuff there about what's happening to the hog producers.

Is this our future?

Is there anything we can do to prevent this happening to us?

Here's the website link.
http://www.siemenssays.com/blog/
The interview with CJOB is worth listening to.

Here's a video.
http://www.siemenssays.com/blog/8497.html


It all just kind of gives you a sick feeling to hear it. Deja Vu....

[SADIE]

grefer---That is part of it. One cannot leave this thread without making the other factor that had alot to do with EXODUS from the Cow-calf INDUSTRY.

FORCED TRACEABILITY---(without anyone jumping all over this comment just sit back and look and listen to those that have now left the cow-calf industry.

Farming/ranching in Canada one reason why it is a desire to do this is "FREEDOM". Forced Regulation is a deterrent to any farming production.

Just look at the grain industry now. The controversial CWB situation. Around this area guys are happy that they can now put HRSW back in their rotation. They now have a choice to use the CWB or market production on their own.

The former smaller family mixed farm with cow-calf side of production is what is being lost during this process. It is talked about in the veterinary circles as practioners see a loss of these clients.

Forced animal ID and tracebility ---hit the hog industry years ago. Where is the hog industry. The exodic species where hit next. Ostrich, Elk, Bison---Where is those industries now.

The seminar talk at SCA meetings, Canadian Cattlemens meetings was it is OK to weed out the smaller herds because the large operations are growing and going to pick up all the short-fall.

I say "BULLSHIT" to those individuals that spoke that.

[ASRG]

The problem I have with "forced tracibility" is this: I am forced to pick up all the cost (the Alberta "free tag" program is ending). The $3/tag price is only a small portion of the cost. Running cattle through a chute requires time, labour, and shrink?
It seems there are always one or two that have lost their tags....or in the case of older cows...several!
If you've ever tried tagging a snorty old cow or bull in a pasture corral with no headgate, you will clearly understand it can be an unsafe and dangerous operation?

[grassfarmer]

Well you got the "BULLSHIT" comment right SADIE.
The hog industry has had bigger problems than
animal ID and traceability. It's a cyclical business
dominated by long periods of negative margins - has
been in Europe for decades too.
I've never actually seen a farmed ostrich operation
and I came here 12 years ago. My guess is they were
out of business prior to the post BSE traceability/ID
rules being introduced.
The bison guys are flying high - doing pretty well for
themselves once they established a market for their
product.
You asked us to sit back and listen to those who had
left the cattle industry - then put out your same old
opinions - you are still in the cattle industry aren't
you? I call BOGUS ADVERTISING.

[kato]

hu? advertising? ???

Well, anyway. I'll put my two cents worth on what happened to the hog industry, and how that makes me worry about the cattle industry.

Many years ago, when we got married, we raised pigs as well as cattle. We had a nice little sideline going in our old dairy barn. We had about 30 to 40 sows, and sold weanlings at the local auction mart. There were enough others in the area that did the same for those sales to average probably a minimum of a thousand weanlings a week. We kept the house running on the money. We utilized the barn that was sitting unused. We had a local feedmill for processing our feed. The local town businesses pulled in a fair amount of money on auction days, and the auction mart had jobs for local people.

Along comes the bigger is better business model.

All of a sudden, the buyers only want groups of 50, bought direct from the farm. They no longer wanted to bring in small groups. After all, it was more efficient that way. The sales got smaller and smaller. Then they only wanted high health pigs that wouldn't need vaccinating, so it became a case where you needed a "good" barn and a contract to sell your weanlings. Next step... they wanted to raise their own. The market for weanling pigs was effectively eliminated, and small operators were out. There were no more pig sales. They were a thing of the past. As were pigs that had any kind of well developed immune systems. You can sneeze at a pig nowadays and it could die. (I wish that was a joke.)

So, step one was to eliminate the existing infrastructure and set up a new one.

The old one? Smaller herds of pigs, scattered around the country, none of them big enough to bring down a farm, and flexible enough to respond to market signals.

The new one? Large herds of pigs, concentrated near processors, most of them big enough to bring down not just a farm, but the feedmill and local suppliers and truckers too. With a high enough profile that they became a target of environmentalists. With so much money invested in buildings and equipment that the production had to go on, regardless of what the market signals were.

So now they find themselves in a situation where two bad years in a row can shut it all down. They're vulnerable to the whims of people who don't even have a part in it. Public perception is that hogs are bad for the environment, that large corporate barns should not be bailed out, and that it's just throwing good money after bad since it never improves anyway. Public perception controls the money, too. Because of the direction the industry took, it's lost it's ability to adjust to changing markets and stay viable. All the eggs are in one basket.

As for how this relates to the cattle business? Think about these questions..

How much pressure is being put on producers to sell their calves "direct" to packer owned feedlots and bypass the auction marts?

How much infrastructure has been built at great cost to concentrate cattle in one area close to a packing plant to be fed out?

What does the public think about the environmental impact of multi-thousands of head feedlots? How much money would they be willing to spend on bailing such an operation out?

How much red tape has been thrown in the faces of smaller operators that isn't needed?

How many processors do we have now, compared to thirty years ago when the bigger is better theory of agriculture was developed?

How many of your neighbours still raise cattle?

We're on the slippery slope. We're not as far along as the pigs are, but we're there. IMHO the bigger is better theory is for the benefit of the suppliers, middlemen, and big business. Not for people like us, or for that matter, for the people who buy food.

All the eggs, be it in the hog, cattle, or grain businesses, are going into one basket. The problem is that we don't own the basket. Big business does.

[SADIE]

Three great posts. I am going to take each post and expand on the discussion.

ASRG--Great thread response. East of Alberta we have been buying these tags since day 1. No subsidy. Out of cost expense that has 0 return value.

Frustration to the producer is that they do not stay in. As a farmer/rancher who wants to continue to purchase and use something that is NFG.

The threat of being fined. This is Canada and the way this has been set up has "PISSED OFF" many many producers.

Confusion over the laws. What is next? How tight and what else is coming downstream.

Lies and constant lies from beef cattle groups, CCIA. reporting faulty tags and many producers have reported the same answer they received. Your case is the first we heard of a problem.

Working, stress of running cattle through the chute, retagging. Bellering, heads flopping around. I have well documented this on agriville. The scientific research is there and when it was taken to Cattle groups the information was scowled at.

Within practicing veterinary clinics and sharing knowledge in the springtime during BULL TESTING. If RFID eartags are needed the electricity of the ejaculator is turned up on the bull---after semen collection so that there is restraint to re-apply these RFID eartags.

Human, hand and wrist injuries keep mounting over tagging adult animals in chutes. Heads keep swinging around like swinging hammer pendulums.

As a producer who can one go to with this information and get help and present these problems and concerns.

Research is there and evidence is present that re-tagging these RFID eartags causes acute pain in these animals. These animals are only reacting to pain. Is this not an animal welfare problem??

Articles in Western Producer or other papers on bovine animal welfare talk about castration, branding, dehorning but these authors do not want to be candid and truthfull enough to present the entire picture. Are there too many dependant on their jobs or salaries to be candid enough to present the entire scientific facts.

good thing there is social media to get this information out. Agriville beef chat room I believe has a large and diverse reading audience.

ASRG---It is a good thing I just came through taking on Energy and being the founding president of SAPL. It was a large movement that came west with the great help of the Ontario PIpeline landowners. On a large larger scale challanging the energy sector and getting to the truth of liability of large diameter pipelines on ones property taught me how beaurocracy and big business works on the little guy. It is all about property rights. The RFID eartag, mandatory animal ID and traceability uses the same tactics and approach. Looking back to 2009 & 2010 I am sure glad CFIA fined me for noncompliance under section 176 of the animal health act. The knowledge I gained on my jouney to my defence and clearance is invaluable now. I am a free man and not scared of CFIA-really the enemy is not CFIA it is our Cattle organizations.

[SADIE]

Grassfarmer--Now to respond to your thread. Your comments have stimulated great information and thought and FACTS that I can now share to agrivillers.

You only have been in Canada 12 years.

Here is my background and it will bring forth alot of years of history. It is not BULLSHIT BUT FACTS. You can get proof of this by contacting SAWBONES who introduced me to Agriville back in 2009. Sawbones is a WCVM classmate of 1976---Veterinary Class. Sawbones was best man at my wedding in 1979. I know you know him---you sat beside him at R. Kaiser's rally in Red Deer a couple of springs back----Class Action Rally ---Cam Pallet's presentation. How do I know that???---sources.

1977 to 1995 I owned and operated the veterinary clinic in Consort Alberta and started up and set my brother and his wife up in Provost in 1981-1985. The majority of that clientelle and caseload is Beef Cow calf. I became a diagnostition of problems related to bovine and beef practice.

Each fall the clinic preg tested between 12,000-15000 head. Being the owner and often down in man-power I did the majority of that work. Each herd I worked for hours & Days at the back end of the cow while I saw different owner/operators give needles and work around the heads and ears of these animals. Many wrecks one saw, many different chutes, headgates and saw this evolution as well. Ear-tagging was always a CURSE. In fact veterinary clinics become normal to increase the fees if there was Ear-tagging to be done.

During the 1980s and to a date I have forgot now veterinarians were involved at auction markets inspections--pre sale. I worked three auction markets in the area. Veteran, Cereal and Provost. All pre-check sales we worked with H OF A. --we PTED while they blooded and tagged--Ketchum.

I now "walk the walk" as a cow-calf operator and have done this since 1996. I am always approached for any advice on treatments and problems with Cattle work. I loved to be asked---it keeps me current and I have never charged. I always refer them to go to their own vet for product.

I have sat on Fall Fair committee and have been asked input on "health protocal" for these events. If there is a problem I will take time and listen to those and accumulate data.

BOGUS ADVERTISING---I will answer this two ways -"GRASS FARMER"

I hate to see my neighbors all around me sell their cow-herds. SCA, CCA, CCIA Sask Stock Growers and CCIA all lump this up as. Age of the producer, going directly to grain farming, wanting holidays in winter, don't want to be tied down.----THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

The really issues are now brought forward. I miss my cows, The regulations, the constant threat of being fined, Ear-tagging, re-tagging the paperwork, the management of data,
Wand readers that don't work, The next step---every time you move cattle --read RFID numbers and follow that group with a sheet of paper with numbers.

No one will listen to us about these concerns, MLA, age person, cattle groups,Member of Parliament---I GIVE UP THE COWS ARE GOING THIS FALL. THE REGULATIONS ARE KILLING US THE SMALL OPERATOR.

Grassfarmer--I will be and always remain being the spokesman for information gathered from the "little operator". Expect that from now and into PERPETUITY on Agriville and anywhere I walk. (Perpetuity is a Pipeline term reference to abandonment of pipelines on land).

I still have a cow-herd.----Dam rights I do. I am 59 and will keep this herd till I am planted. I will continue to WALK THE WALK as a PROUD CANADIAN CATTLEMAN. I go to large cattle events and I am known to most in the crowd. The Canadian Western Agribition has a great BRED HEIFER SALE each November. In 2011 I was very proud to be the winning buyer of the SIMM/ANGUS F1 from Blairs. The price I paid was $1925.00 each. This is my whole herd and if my health ever fails my family can sell this herd for good $$ in a HEART BEAT. THis is usually the high priced pen at the sale and I have taken this PEN OF 10 5 years now. I walk by the A HOLES that are the UPPY UPS with CCA, Saskatchewan Cattlemans group--I walk right by them now---PROUD. At one time as purchaser of these top pens these guys are buddies to you, drinks and all. Because I have stood up and made my stand against the problems of TRACEABILITY I am no longer liked and bussies to these guys.

Cattlemens meetings I no longer attend if I have to pay any $$ for entrance. I have asked for refunds of any manditory check-offs.

Magazines that come in the mail. Any that have discussions on Traceability, readers, premise ID get thrown in the mail.

I have highway frontage and I love show-casing a herd of uniformity by the highway of my cow-herd or replacement heifer herd.

I am thinking of getting a nice cattle jacket made--Leather with advertising on the back ---Something like

THUMBS DOWN TO TRACEABILITY.

Grassfarmer--check out my reference points.

I finish combining today. I did have a very good crop. I will take in the third day of the Veterinary Conference tomorrow to celebrate. This will keep me in touch with other rural veterinarians who also have earlier brought in evidence of WHY THE SMALLER COW-CALF OPERATOR is really leaving the business

[grassfarmer]

Wow, you are a legend SADIE - toot toot!! buying the
dearest heifers at a sale must make you one - toot
toot!! Reporting where people are sitting at meetings
several years ago makes it a little bit creepy though.
Now you need to scold Kato for omitting the part
about how animal ID and tracking was what drove
their family out of the pig business. If you read the
story it told the reasons, not your trumped up BS
reasons.

[rkaiser]

Just one quick note on the "fear of one of our poor packers leaving". Will never happen. Until we have another plant in place to send them literally --- packing.Using the fear story about packers leaving the country is an old ABP trick to get more money for them from the government. It has worked for years. Do the entrepreneurs on agriville want to help the cause as well? LOL. They are not going anywhere boys, only securing more control every day by owning the system below.
No fear folks - just optimism and opportunity. Believe it or not, every thing that Cargill and NB have done can be done again --- and will. Even better.

[SADIE]

grassfarmer:

Sadie--was a legend. She was a great family pet our lab dog. We lost her last Dec 3 2011. I am not changing my ID. I want people to know who I am and what I stand for.

I hate bullshit, bullies and big business that suppresses the little guy, takes away property rights and leaves them helpless.

You appear to accept and like what we did with SAPL which turned into CAEPLA getting into ALBERTA with the CAEPLA LANDOWNER MAGAZINES that brought to the surface the issues of property rights of landowners. This cost huge $$$ that came from our landowner victory east of your province. Those $$$ helped get the CAEPLA magazine and expose Keith Wilson's message on your Alberta Property RIGhts bills.

It was the huge SAPL/MPLA ENBRIDGE settlement agreement that landowners beginning in Ontario, then across Manitoba and through Saskatchewan finally reached ALBERTA. This movement could never originate out of Alberta because of the long-standing ENERGY INFLUENCE on the long standing PC government.

With great respect for ASRG and the Alberta Surface RIghts groups we hope the CAEPLA movement also helped the ASRG further their interests in that province.

It is all about property rights of farmers/ranchers and landowners. Freedom to farm their land and work with the cattle they own and make their own choices on how to market their farm produce or cattle operation. It is about freedom of choice in CANADA.

[SADIE]

grassfarmer--I know you have only been in Canada for 12 years so I will try to help you identify what I was trying to say to you "KINDLY" with the remark of contacting SAWBONES who I know you know because you sat beside him at the CAM PALLET'S RALLY a couple of years ago.

What was I really trying to say to you?

If you don't know my name as yet or know how to spell it phone SAWBONES at Dewberry area. First congradulate him on getting married this last summer.

Randy Kaiser knows my name a how to spell it.

I don't know who reports this information but "GOOGLE" my name. I am proud of the long list of "MEDIA COMMENTS AND STATEMENTS I HAVE MADE" against Beaurocrats and government BULLSHIT that is coming at farmers, landowners, cattlemen at all directions.

Prior to 2007 I knew nothing, I repeat Nothing on how to take on the BULLIES OF GOVERNMENTS AND BIG BUSINESS. CAPLA at that time was a movement out of Ontario. Great leadership needed someone to volunteer and try to form the SASKATCHEWAN Landowner group. No farmer, large farmer was willing to take this on. Just under the wire I volunteered to do this task. It was an unbelieveable experience. Trying to get organized was brutality. Land agents, Energy company landmen, MLAs and MPS were against any leader. I felt I was threatened by landagents, my family felt threatened I received letters in the mail offering $$$ into perpetuity not to do this.

This is Canada and I could not think this is possible. I kept organizing and building an army. Many town hall meetings explaining the landowner issues that landowners didn't know existed once these large diameter pipelines under RIGHT OF ENTRY ORDERS obtain access on you land.

This turned into a huge movement. Landowners became knowledgeable. I would not submit to being "bought off". The landowner group for SAPL reached 275 members and MPLA (Manitoba) was already 183 members.

Today I meet with respect personnel within the pipeline companies. I can talk respectfully and explain to them landowner issues as well. I own shares in the company and attend the shareholders meetings.

That journey has developed a strong charactor. Now the RFID eartag CFIA situation is exactly the same structure but at a pressure level at a much lower magnitude.

The media is controlLed by government, energy same as CFIA. Articles on traceabilty keep coming out in cattlemens magazines---where is the $$ coming from. The purchase of RFID eartags?

The little guy--pipeline landowner had no where to turn if that person had concerns, Many landowners were just selling their land and moving.

The smaller cow-calf person is selling off the cow-herds. They had questions of concerns and got nothing but BULLSHIT answers from who they thought would be people that would listen or help them. They are now frustrated and giving up and selling out.

I will finish combining today. I have one last load. Then I can relax and spend more and proper time again at the computer and helping others.

There is a very important hearing coming up in Calgary on Pipeline Abandonment issues that I will post on this site and Commodities site in the near future. This is huge. Expert witnesses that are coming forward are being brought in by MPLA who have some $$$ left and are using top legal counsel in Canada. ASRG should let your abandoment personnel know this. I will be there myself. We have 0 Funds left becasue SAPL integrated with CAEPLA and sent our money to help out in the ALBERTA theatre of events.

This is a huge hearing and timely considering the GATEWAY CERTIFICATE HEARING is getting lots of resistance right now and raising concerns on continual oil spills.