Cow economics

[cowman]

Grassfarmer: Without a doubt a lot of the things you say are true but then you are in an area that is a lot better than the one I am in. I was out at Medicine Lake on the weekend and it looks like the garden of Eden compared to here. Also you had a fairly decent year last year while we were in a major drought. The hay and crops that were heavily fertilized around here are the worst and this is on good black loam not grey wooded peat moss! Badly burnt up.
You say 1600-1700 lb. cows are very inefficient. What would you say was an effecient weight? How much should those calves weigh in the fall? Ever tried calving out those tiny cows bred to a big exotic bull? I spent this morning at the mart and the big charX calves brought not only the most overall money but the most money per pound. Now those babies never came off no 1200 lb. British cow! I also noted the British type cows weighing down in that 1200 lb. range were 4 to 5 cents less than the big char and simmental cows.$500 versus $800! So which is more efficient? Do you think we are all idiots who just love big cows? Or maybe it could be we've been at this awhile and know what kind of cow actually pays the bills?
Got to agree with you that the fuel milage on modern trucks are a scandal, but what should we do? A Toyota just doesn't seem to get the job done when towing a 20 foot gooseneck full of cattle!
I'm happy it's working out for you. Lord knows we need some new blood and ideas in the cattle business.

[grassfarmer]

Cow efficiency has been researched widely in N. America and all that I've seen points to the 1100-1300lb cow being the most efficient converter of forage into beef. Too many people in my opinion still feel the top $ in the sale ring equals the top profit - and it impresses the neighbours. I certainly wouldn't consider cull cow value important when breeding replacement heifers - unless of course bigger cows mean you are selling culls more often ?
We were sucessfully in the cow business for many generations in the Old Country and we consistently weaned 650lb calves at 210 days with no creep off cows that averaged 1250lbs. Modern cattle genetics allow us to do this and here in Alberta you have some world leaders in cattle and cattle genetics. I am impressed with the number of operations here selecting for low birth weight, high performing calves and with today's cattle industry science you can safely take Charolais calves out of smaller cows if you buy the right bulls.
I am intrigued that quite a few farmers here seem to be trying to downsize their cows by using small breed (angus or hereford) bulls on Charolais or Simmental cows presumably to breed smaller heifers - how efficient a herd does this make? can big cows produce the heavyweight calves to a small bull ?

[grassfarmer]

grassfarmer: Could you detail a little more as to how you come to your calculations. How much forage are you feeding, to what size of cow. How many lbs per day does she need. Are you feeding any roughage as a filler and at what price ? Is 1.86 for feed cost only. what is your cost to actual feed it, and do you charge yourself yardage to cover infrastructure maintanence.Would like anybodies input on this subject.

[cowman]

An efficient cow has little to do with her weight. The 1600 lb. cow raising the 800 lb. calf is as good or better than her 1200 lb. counterpart raising a 600 lb. calf. Right at this moment we are caught up in a high feed price situation. No cow is making anyone any money. The one good thing about this is it has focused the feedlots back onto the most efficient gainers(the big exotic cross calf) and got us off this black fad! I'm not knocking the Angus breed although I believe they've had a little help from Maines and Simmental.
This is a highly personal thing. Some people like big cattle and some like small ones. Either one can work.
Personally I prefer a cow at least 1400 lb. mature weight. I've always found they work for me. And some of those big tan whitefaced cows have been the best ones I've ever owned.
The bull business favors big calves. Try selling that 1000 lb. yearling. He might have a low birthrate but no one wants him. The other side of the low birthrate bull who grows up to be a big bull is rare indeed. In a lot of cases it is the work of a creative pencil rather than a true fact.
Every cow comes to the end of her life. Now all things being equal/say both were as "efficient"(by that I mean net profit) then you'd better believe that extra $300 means a lot! Over 25% of the average income on a cattle farm comes from the culls. So it's not too hard to figure out...you need to pay that much less for that little hfr. than the big quality hfr.
Once again I reiterate there is no right way or wrong way! Everyone raises cattle for different reasons. Back in the early eighties I got a charlais bull and the results were outstanding. I told my dad he should throw a Char in with his cows(purebred horned herefords) and he could make a lot more money! His reply"Where the hell did you ever get the idea I care about making more money?" Didn't make sense to me at all but then I wasn't looking at it from his perspective! Enjoyed what he had and money wasn't a big priority.
You sound like you are really on the ball and right up on things. And that is a good thing. And maybe you see your neighbor doing something you think could be improved on. But remember he might have a completely different slant on why he's doing this! And that is his right!

[grassfarmer]

Cowman - I agree entirely that we each have the right to make our own choices with regard to breed and size of cow and how we manage them, that's what makes agriculture such a diverse and interesting business. By communicating and discussing with each other we can share different perspectives and hopefully all learn something new and beneficial. I just don't happen to feel big cows are the option for me.
By your examples a 1200lb cow has to grow her calf at 2.5lbs a day from an 80lb BW to wean a 600lb calf at 210 days whereas a 1600lb cow has to grow her calf at 3.3lb a day from a 100lb BW to wean an 800lb calf at the same age. Even without a severe drought I doubt that you could grow the 800lb calf at that rate in this climate as regularily as you could the smaller one - they just need too much forage to do it.To say that "all things being equal" through their lifetime a big cull cow is worth more than a small one is a false argument. I would argue that a smaller cow will winter easier, will fatten up quicker in the summer, breed back quicker and thereby be more productive throughout a longer working life - owing you less in cull value. As they say "Size DOES matter !"

Palexand: The figures I was using to work out feed requirements were as follows: To feed 1200lb March/April calving cows entering the winter in good condition.
Mid October to Mid February (120 days) @ 8lbs very good alfalfa and 13lbs good greenfeed - total $1.55/ day
Mid February to Mid June (120 days) @15lbs alfalfa, 8lbs greenfeed and 4lbs high quality pellets - total $2.17/ day
Averaged out to $1.86 per day over 240 days. It doesn't include salt or minerals or yardage as the original thread quoting $700 feed cost didn't either. These are only rough estimates to get an idea of tonnage needed and will be finalised once we get feed analysis done and see how many days more grazing we can extract. It will be next summer before we know the final cost of feeding cows through this winter but these are the figures that are steering me towards buying feed rather than selling cows - maybe different figures apply to your operation.

[15444]

Hey cowman, wait a sec. I had a old cow I shipped this spring, grade hereford out of the old herefords, you know small and thick. That cow was 11 years old this spring, and every year she brought home a calf over 600 pounds. Now explain your philosophy to me when that cow weighed in at just a tad over 1000 lbs every fall? Then I also had a big purebred hereford, almost 1700 lbs, brought home a 375 pound calf last fall.
Both cows bred to the same purebred hereford bull. Explain this.

[cowman]

Actually some of those "old style" hereford cows were pretty efficient! When the hereford breed tried to chase the exotics they ruined them. They tried to add frame at the expense of milk and all the traits that made the hereford cow a tough efficient cow. To the point where a straight bred hereford calf is almost a rarity.
The cattle buyers don't want these small framed calves or for that matter small framed cattle. I sat in the mart the other day and the big exotic cows consistently sold for at least 4 cents/lb. more than the smaller cows. I asked one buyer how come. "Simple" he says " It costs the same price to kill a 1600 lb. cow as a 1200 lb. cow, so the 1600 lb. cow is worth a lot more per pound".
The same goes for the big exoticX calf. You push him hard in the feedlot and he's ready to go in a short time while the small framed calf isn't. Less time means a higher turnaround and more money for the feedlot.
When I took my AI course way back in the early eighties I well remember our instructor telling us " If you aren't crossbreeding you either have inherited the farm, have so many oil wells on it that it doesn't matter or just don't like money!" The most efficient thing you can do is crossbreed...preferably an F1 female to a terminal(read that Charlais) bull!

[Bruce14]

Cowman, the question I have is if you think the makeup of the cowherd in the drought area will change when the rains come and people restock their pastures. (Yes the rain will come some time and we will find a way to continue.) Will the buckskin cows whether char or simm cross be replaced with black or red baldies. In my mind and a lot of others the simm/angus cross (either red or black) cow is pretty darn good. If you are buying your replacements, what you use for a terminal sire is up too you. We can debate cow size however it comes down to net dollars per cow exposed during breeding the previous year. How you achieve that will depend on the area and management. Here a little larger sized cow works better due to normally cheaper and more certain feed supply.

[cowman]

Oh I definitely think the Sim/angus cow is pretty close to the ideal cow and I doubt that trend will change much. Basically this is what my cow herd is made up of with a few char/hereford cross cows that were just too good to let go. Those big monster cows were on their way out long before this drought. Now personally I don't consider a 1600 lb. cow a really big cow if she is in decent shape. Now I could starve her down to maybe 1350 if I had to! Go to your local purebred Charlais breeder and you will probably see cows pushing a ton! Pretty hard to keep a Sim/angus cross under 1400 lb. anymore! Angus cattle aren't the little runts they were 20 years ago!
Because I relied quite heavily on AI for my replacements I was getting the quality big bulls and therefore fairly big cows. They worked for me. And I sure like looking at them!