Good source of forage seed???

[freewheat]

Wow, I am sorry, I never even stated my intent of use for the forage. It is for hay, not grazing. Does this change all your suggestions, or did you assume it was for hay already?

[grassfarmer]

I was assuming it was for grazing. If you are haying go ahead with your alfalfa but find something other than meadow brome for a grass as it is low growing and not the best for hay. Maybe smooth brome or even that timothy #$%&!

[freewheat]

Thanks grassfarmer!

[Mufferaw]

Timothy or hydrid broke would be good choices. Use a tap and creeping root alfalfa

[blackjack]

So many many variables Freewheat...is the land going to be used in a short rotation or permanent.Do you plan on selling the hay whether alfalfa for dairy or timothy for the horse crowd.Most important would be what legumes or grasses grow on your type of soil and of course your climate.

[littledoggie]

No one has mentioned orchard grass. We use orchard grass (35-40%) in our hay fields along with 60% alfalfa. Alsike clover is here (Peace Country) naturally and just comes up no matter what you do. We sometimes have a little Timothy in our mix. Our soil is grey-wooded. The orchard grass does well in it but in a hot dry year it will go dormant. It likes to be shaded so the mix with alfalfa is good, also if you have a smaller field shaded by trees. The beauty of it is how prolific it is in producing many many leaves and virtually no stock. (unlike Timothy) The cattle really like it - the meadow brome they don't like because it is 'hairy'. The weaned calves do really well on the orchard grass - they really like it.

[WiltonRanch]

You guys aren't fans of meadow brome I see. What is a better alternative for hay on heavy clay? It sure isn't a real producer. I am always afraid of drought and the meadow seems to hold on.

[grassfarmer]

I really like meadow brome but consider a grass to be grazed not hayed. We find it to be very productive. The only time we have palatability issues with it is in banked grass grazed the following spring. It holds its quality and is really popular right into November though under our conditions.
Agreed orchard grass is a useful grass under certain conditions. It is subject to winter kill in areas that don't get enough snow cover. It also regrows so quickly that it is very susceptible to the regrowth getting clipped a second time within about 3 days in a grazing situation.

Don't have any experience of clay soil WiltonRanch so can offer no suggestions.

[smcgrath76]

Meadow brome is fantastic, but not for haying. Leaves are fine and tough to cut, but the tonnage is good. We have not had palatability issues with it, but we use paddocks and move cows so maybe a different system than some others. Smooth or hybrid brome with upright growth is much better for hay. We have had pretty good luck with it on clay soils. We usually seed meadow brome or crested wheat and alfalfa in a pasture mix (depending on the planned season of use). Not a large fan of timothy just due to the nutrient profile and short cutting window before it is basically straw. We have done some experimenting with russian wildrye and are looking at cicer milkvetch and sainfoin for use in some of our grazing plantings. We graze lots of our tame stuff that is 50 to 75% alfalfa with no problems.
A good place to look is the Brett Young site, even if you don't buy the seed from them, they have some pretty good ideas for mixes. Also Northstar seeds has some pretty decent ideas for mixes.

[grassfarmer]

The cicer milk vetch is my favourite legume Sean. Going to be seeding that as our main legume on the new place. Painfully slow to establish but once you've got it it should be there for ever with a little management. Really suits our type of grazing management.

[greybeard]

Ag Vision seeds in Carrot River SK has about everything you might need.
Smooth Brome / Alfalfa is hard to beat in a new stand for hay.
With the rainfall we have had lately Cicer is looking to be an overlooked legume for pasture.
I think what GF means buy suiting his system is that it really shines for late fall/banked grazing. Stays green and doesn't shed it's leaves like most other legumes. Also seems to be a multiplier if given a chance.
High seed cost is a problem, but it will multiply from very few plants given the right management and climate.

[newguy]

My best luck was buying direct from growers up in your country. Tisdale Naiciam area. Not hard to mix it yourself.

[grassfarmer]

Staying green in the fall is part of it greybeard but what also makes it work in our situation is the long rest periods. We average 1.5 passes per year, if you were doing 2 or 2.5 passes every year I don't think it would suit the cicer. Seems to need more recovery to really thrive and spread.

Saw a field of cicer once that just blew my mind. Was seeded as part of a mix but fairly heavy with cicer (albs or so) I drove past the field about 3 years after it was seeded and had to do a double take - it was like a field of peas - just a solid mat right across a quarter section. Never seen an establishment success like that anywhere else.

[greybeard]

My only field with Cicer gets used for calving in April/may. I try not to use it again till late oct when it is well podded.
Mine was kind of an accidental seeding as I thought I was seeding 2# of white dutch but had the bags mixed up.
I don't know where the White Dutch went but I'm glad I got the Cicer in that field.
I think I may bale it next Oct and feed it on some other fields over the winter.

[grassfarmer]

Don't expect too dramatic results despite all these seed pods greybeard. I have twice gathered seed from it and germination tested it with only about a 7% result. In nature some of that may have germinated in year 2 or year 5 but it certainly isn't instant. It has a lot of hard seed and the seed you buy is all scarified because of that. It definitely spreads on farm through seed movement as we have it now on pastures that were never seeded but only in small quantities. I think the birds can seed it too as we have it in areas stock are excluded from.