Angus Cattle

[sagewood]

Gentlemen while reading these reponses, I am mostly appalled that someone would even consider letting a cow loose at least 30% of her body weight through the winter and then expect that same cow to calve with ease and then nurse and raise a calf through to the fall (and she is expected to get pregnant again) and both of cow and calf are expected to maintain their vigor and growth. I cannot state strongly enough that this type of mentality is what prompts the urbanites to call the SPCA and to report animal abuse. Apparently there are those among us that still do not understand that the vast majority of Canadians (whether they live in AB. or not) do not have a connection to the land and the animals. Therefore, when they see animals without food and shelter and the fact that these animals have their ribs showing, they then come to the conclusion that ranchers/farmers do not care about their animals and thus the urbanites tend to become vegans to prevent becoming part of the cycle of inhuman treatment that they see being inflicted on cattle.

If those in charge of cattle cannot or will not find the time and/or money to feed/bed and shelter these animals properly--then by all means--it is way past time to get out of the cattle business and perhaps they should have not been in the business in the first place. The cattle business is not now and never has been a place for a lazy, dim witted, uncaring individuals. While the last five years have been "tough--tough" in the cattle business, I believe either you are in or you are out--there is no half way point on this--either care for the animals properly, even if it costs more money than is coming in, or get out of the business..but by no means should the cattle be made to suffer just to protect the almighty bottom line.

I don't care what breed you profess to believe in or breed--there is room out there for good cattle no matter their blood lines--but the fact remains--as long as we continue to fence them in--expect big weight calves in the fall and a constant conception date, then these cows need help from their humans--left to deal with mother nature on their own these cattle would do things a lot differently. Let's face it gentlemen, the cattle are still a lot smarter than their handlers.

[grassfarmer]

Hey, sagewood those sound like the views of an urbanite vegan! I've seen more cows weather stressed and with their ribs showing under "conventional" management on rations that probably cost $2 a day than I've seen among the herds of the people on this thread. Plenty of "regular" guys winter calving or just clueless about running cows have thin cattle(or acreage horses for that matter) I'm insulted to be branded a "lazy, dim witted, uncaring individuals" - nothing could be further from the truth.

[smcgrath76]

Sagewood, I agree with your words of caution, however I question a bit how much we should do for a cow. Calving in the winter means that cows require more bedding, shelter, feed, etc. and there is a limit to how much body condition a cow should lose over the winter. For those calving in spring and summer and using good pasture management I think the answer is that a cow should lose at least some condition (if she goes into winter in good condition).
I agree with the changing perceptions of the public, but I disagree with paying more than the cow will return. If that is the case long term then I believe it is time for the farmer to exit the industry unless there are other factors for why they keep cows (personal enjoyment, taxes, etc.)
Animal welfare is an interesting question as a lot depends on perception. Is it more cruel to confine a grazing animal over the winter or to make them graze?
I don't know the answer to that for sure, but your point is well taken.
The golden rule is "if I look after my animals then they will look after me".

[farmers_son]

I think cows can loose a portion of their body weight through the winter and not have their ribs showing. They first have to be in real good shape going into the winter. In 2002 and 2003 we did have to stretch our winter feed and the cows did pickup again in the spring and rebreed just fine.

But based on those experiences in 2002 and 03 I do not believe having my cows loose a significant amount of condition over winter is a management practice I will aim for. I think it is hard on the cows and probably will decrease their useful life. A longer breeding life of a cow is an important economic consideration.

But one thing I saw quite clearly during those drought years is that there is quite a variation between cows on the amount of feed the cow needs through the winter. I do not think it is all genetic; health, condition going into the winter, age, winter weather are all factors. I have changed our typical winter feeding practice of feeding all the breeding cows in one herd through the winter to now I am set up to feed in several herds. Any cow noticeably loosing condition is cut out and put in with another bunch that is fed a ration that would make the other cows get fat.

Should the cow I cut out be culled? Maybe, maybe not. It depends why she was loosing condition. Is the cow that got through the winter on less feed the cow I should be using for the base genetics of my herd, again maybe, maybe not. It depends. Maybe she got through the winter OK because she went into winter fat because she did not raise a good calf.

[PureCountry]

f_s, think through your post a bit. If she's fat because she raised a poor calf, she should go anyway. There's a 'sweet spot' in cow type, and anyone with an eye for stock can see it. A cow that is thin almost year round while raising a good calf, can stay in my herd, but I won't build around her genes. She'll most likely weed herself out by coming in open sooner or later.

Conversely, a cow that is FAT year round while raising a mediocre calf will be dismissed from 'herd planning' also. I have some cows that are fat almost year round, and consistently bring in the best calves. They are the cows I build around. Of course they have everything else going for them - structure, disposition, blah, blah, blah.

I think 'easy-fleshing' may be the first trait to be taken for granted. Partly because it's so damn hard to judge it, when you don't know how much $4 barley has gone into an animal before you buy it, be it a herd sire prospect, or a female. One more reason to buy from someone not afraid to show you the cowherd in about, oh mid-January, and see the cows in their true colors, shapes and sizes.

F_s, don't mean to incinuate that you don't have an eye for stock, and sagewood, I agree with your statement about people's perceived outlook on farmers/ranchers, but take it easy with the finger pointing - we still need to be friends on the next thread.

[farmers_son]

What I said was "Maybe she got through the winter OK because she went into winter fat because she did not raise a good calf." That is pretty much saying what you are saying.

If there was a point I was trying to make it was that some thought should be given to wintering cows in two groups, when a cow begins to loose condition move it to the herd that is getting better feed. It will save a lot of feed overall. You can cull based on that or not as you see fit.

A cow that goes into the fall at 1250 and looses 30% of her body weight over winter will weigh 875 come spring. That is not much cow left. Hopefully she is not going to calve for another two months or she is in trouble. A 1800 pound cow that looses 30% will weigh 1260. That is going to be pretty hard on that cow. My opinion but I think a cow that goes into winter in real good shape might stand to loose about 10% but I personally would be uncomfortable with any more than that. A cow that goes into winter in only fair shape will have to pick up weight.

[rkaiser]

After re reading sagewood's post - I have to say that I can't argue with any of it. I do not see him/her as branding anyone anything other than those who refuse to take care of their stock.

This whole thread started with a suggestion about genetic selection for maintenance.

The extreme weight loss situation that this Kiwi Angus guy proposed is disgraceful in my mind and I am sorry grassfarmer but the climate and terrain story just ain't cutting it for an excuse. We like to use the wildlife for comparison in this more natural approach to raising stock which I have to say I try to follow. How many of you have ever seen a deer lose 30 per cent of her body weight over winter unless she is caught in one hell of a naturally disastrous winter in her area.

[greybeard]

How much is “saved” by taking your down 300 lbs when hay is 2 cents. I’m thinking 10 to 15cents a day. About $25 an animal or calf sold. No calf, no money.
I do agree we have to breed towards efficient cows to fit our environment. What is right for the Corn Belt or Cheyenne Wells may not be right in your own little ecosystem.

[sagewood]

Grassfarmer and all the rest--no I was not pointing my finger at grassfarmer about being lazy etc. etc., but was most certainly pointing my finger at those who will not care properly for their cattle. Grassfarmer, I am not a vegan, nor am I an urbanite. I have raised cattle and worked the ranch for the past 40 years, many of those years I have worked alone and maintained a purebred herd and a cow/calf herd. Work of this nature is not for the lazy or faint of heart. My cattle were never over fat at any time of the year and I had minimal calving issues, as my cattle were healthy year round. I culled hard in the beginning of my herd and never regretted getting rid of cows who were not efficient feeders, or good milkers, with good feet, legs, temperment and so forth.

As stated in one of the posts, with hay being as cheap as it has been the past few years, I see absolutely no reason why any cow should be put under hardship through inclement weather. We do after all lock them in certain confined spaces, whether the spaces be a pen or a 640 acre field. Left to their own devices, they would find shelter to protect themselves from the weather and move until they found food and water. When they run up against a fence in a snow storm, there is absolutely nowhere else for them to go--they survive or die, depending on where they are in the herd. Therefore, I still say, that the cattle business is no place for uncaring and/or lazy people who will not, for whatever reason, care properly for their cattle on a year 'round basis and that means adequate quality food and water, salt and mineral and adequate shelter. Grassfarmer, you can swath graze or whatever it is that you like to do--just make sure there are enough swaths to fulfill your herds needs and that they can actually find the swaths under two feet of snow (which I hear is expected in the new year). Perehaps you should take a turn at manning some of the cattle association booths when they get out there and try to show the urban population what it is we do in this industry to make things right for our cattle. You would have your hands full trying to explain thin cows or dead calves that lie in full view of the travelling public. The Animal Care and SPCA exist for a reason--there is a need to monitor our industry ourselves because as we all know there are less and less of us aggie types and more and more urban folks who don't have the first clue where their food comes from or how it is raised, but they are the first to point fingers and refuse to eat a certain product if they perceive that all is not well. As Dr. Bob Church is fond of saying "Perception is reality--facts are negotiable".

As for keeping cattle when we are just barely making a dollar or breaking even. I think that the cattle business has been very good to all of us for several years, so if it costs me a little out of pocket to keep my cows until prices pick up, then so be it. They have most certainly paid handsomely for many, many year for me--I will press on enjoying them, and am hoping, like the rest of you, that prices will pick up in the next year or two.

[grassfarmer]

It's interesting that you brought Bob's quote in there sagewood. I think this applies to many of the comments made on this thread. Everyone is quick to judge someone for claiming to take 30% of the bodyweight off their cows in winter. Mention is made of these being poor cows, poor management, cruelty etc etc. If the facts this reader relates are true however he is achieving 97% females re-bred in a 42-45 day period, cows that rear calves that weigh 660lbs at 200 days and cows that remain productive until the age of 12 or 15. All from a herd that eats nothing but grazed pasture in a tough climate. How many of you can claim results as good as these? I know I can't. This is clearly not the performance of a poorly run operation where they are neglecting or abusing their animals. It seems that in coming to your conclusions your "Perception is reality--facts are negotiable"