Angus Cattle

[farmers_son]

What I said was "Maybe she got through the winter OK because she went into winter fat because she did not raise a good calf." That is pretty much saying what you are saying.

If there was a point I was trying to make it was that some thought should be given to wintering cows in two groups, when a cow begins to loose condition move it to the herd that is getting better feed. It will save a lot of feed overall. You can cull based on that or not as you see fit.

A cow that goes into the fall at 1250 and looses 30% of her body weight over winter will weigh 875 come spring. That is not much cow left. Hopefully she is not going to calve for another two months or she is in trouble. A 1800 pound cow that looses 30% will weigh 1260. That is going to be pretty hard on that cow. My opinion but I think a cow that goes into winter in real good shape might stand to loose about 10% but I personally would be uncomfortable with any more than that. A cow that goes into winter in only fair shape will have to pick up weight.

[rkaiser]

After re reading sagewood's post - I have to say that I can't argue with any of it. I do not see him/her as branding anyone anything other than those who refuse to take care of their stock.

This whole thread started with a suggestion about genetic selection for maintenance.

The extreme weight loss situation that this Kiwi Angus guy proposed is disgraceful in my mind and I am sorry grassfarmer but the climate and terrain story just ain't cutting it for an excuse. We like to use the wildlife for comparison in this more natural approach to raising stock which I have to say I try to follow. How many of you have ever seen a deer lose 30 per cent of her body weight over winter unless she is caught in one hell of a naturally disastrous winter in her area.

[greybeard]

How much is “saved” by taking your down 300 lbs when hay is 2 cents. I’m thinking 10 to 15cents a day. About $25 an animal or calf sold. No calf, no money.
I do agree we have to breed towards efficient cows to fit our environment. What is right for the Corn Belt or Cheyenne Wells may not be right in your own little ecosystem.

[sagewood]

Grassfarmer and all the rest--no I was not pointing my finger at grassfarmer about being lazy etc. etc., but was most certainly pointing my finger at those who will not care properly for their cattle. Grassfarmer, I am not a vegan, nor am I an urbanite. I have raised cattle and worked the ranch for the past 40 years, many of those years I have worked alone and maintained a purebred herd and a cow/calf herd. Work of this nature is not for the lazy or faint of heart. My cattle were never over fat at any time of the year and I had minimal calving issues, as my cattle were healthy year round. I culled hard in the beginning of my herd and never regretted getting rid of cows who were not efficient feeders, or good milkers, with good feet, legs, temperment and so forth.

As stated in one of the posts, with hay being as cheap as it has been the past few years, I see absolutely no reason why any cow should be put under hardship through inclement weather. We do after all lock them in certain confined spaces, whether the spaces be a pen or a 640 acre field. Left to their own devices, they would find shelter to protect themselves from the weather and move until they found food and water. When they run up against a fence in a snow storm, there is absolutely nowhere else for them to go--they survive or die, depending on where they are in the herd. Therefore, I still say, that the cattle business is no place for uncaring and/or lazy people who will not, for whatever reason, care properly for their cattle on a year 'round basis and that means adequate quality food and water, salt and mineral and adequate shelter. Grassfarmer, you can swath graze or whatever it is that you like to do--just make sure there are enough swaths to fulfill your herds needs and that they can actually find the swaths under two feet of snow (which I hear is expected in the new year). Perehaps you should take a turn at manning some of the cattle association booths when they get out there and try to show the urban population what it is we do in this industry to make things right for our cattle. You would have your hands full trying to explain thin cows or dead calves that lie in full view of the travelling public. The Animal Care and SPCA exist for a reason--there is a need to monitor our industry ourselves because as we all know there are less and less of us aggie types and more and more urban folks who don't have the first clue where their food comes from or how it is raised, but they are the first to point fingers and refuse to eat a certain product if they perceive that all is not well. As Dr. Bob Church is fond of saying "Perception is reality--facts are negotiable".

As for keeping cattle when we are just barely making a dollar or breaking even. I think that the cattle business has been very good to all of us for several years, so if it costs me a little out of pocket to keep my cows until prices pick up, then so be it. They have most certainly paid handsomely for many, many year for me--I will press on enjoying them, and am hoping, like the rest of you, that prices will pick up in the next year or two.

[grassfarmer]

It's interesting that you brought Bob's quote in there sagewood. I think this applies to many of the comments made on this thread. Everyone is quick to judge someone for claiming to take 30% of the bodyweight off their cows in winter. Mention is made of these being poor cows, poor management, cruelty etc etc. If the facts this reader relates are true however he is achieving 97% females re-bred in a 42-45 day period, cows that rear calves that weigh 660lbs at 200 days and cows that remain productive until the age of 12 or 15. All from a herd that eats nothing but grazed pasture in a tough climate. How many of you can claim results as good as these? I know I can't. This is clearly not the performance of a poorly run operation where they are neglecting or abusing their animals. It seems that in coming to your conclusions your "Perception is reality--facts are negotiable"

[rkaiser]

The fact is grassfarmer -- this guy is full of shit. The numbers that you posted and he claims are utter bull shit. You know it as well as the rest of us.

[sagewood]

Wow Mr Kaiser, couldn't have said it better myself!LOL

[gaucho]

Randy you seem bitter with life...I have passed on the thread to New Zealand and I anticipate that you will have some comments back to yours within the next day or so. I have had the chance to see many operations in North America and else where around the world. One thing about New Zealand producers is that can think outside the box, they know their numbers, they run very smart buisnesses and are more than willing to share their opinions. We could all learn a bit by looking beyond our borders.

[rkaiser]

Bitter with life gaucho - no - just sick of listening to an industry try to squeeze everything they can out of the animal that butters our bread.

All we hear about at these conferences or from cattle consultants these days is that we need to keep cutting costs. When an idea comes along to add value to the other end - those who propose a plan are ridiculed and doubted.

But pointing out a bunch of BS with extreme numbers like this article points out and I am somehow simply a man bitter with life.

I look forward to the comments from New Zealand Gaucho. I am always wiling to listen and maybe it will make me less bitter :-)

Did you notice the part of the article where Christoph is truly only looking for an animal that will MAINTAIN her condition on lower quality winter rations. Big difference between maintaining and ripping off 30% of a 1250 pound cows body weight.

[rkaiser]

Before I get another personal blast about my passionate posts - I would like to say that I love the pictures of the Kiwi Angus cows on the front page of the cattleman and especially the one on the page that starts the story. These are truly good looking Angus cattle. You don't find that kind of depth of rib in any cattle these days. No doubt this fellow is a good breeder but me thinks his sale pitch could be adjusted a bit - or the translation of it by the writer at the very least.

[gaucho]

Passion is good....it stirs thought, good debate and new ideas. In fact this thread has had more interaction than anything since September.

[rkaiser]

You bet gaucho. Only problem is that we can't post pictures here on agriville. I would like to invite you all to join me over on ranchers.net ranch talk - thread titled Angus
http://ranchers.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=22412
I will post some pictures on the thread and hope that once our New Zealand friend gets some pictures of his wintering cows, he will do the same.

[kato]

Here's a different slant on this for the sake of discussion. How about feeding them up good, keeping them in good shape, and getting some bonus calves?

We run moderate framed early calving Charolais cows bred Limo. Even though they start to calve in January, they are only locked up for about 90 days, from mid January until mid April, when they move to a twenty acre pasture near the yard. Until January, they graze corn and gain weight going into winter. We don't bed much until calving starts, unless we get bad storms. Our cows can even get into a shed if a blizzard comes up. When they start to calve, even though it's cold, they don't lose weight.

I don't think we have that much higher inputs than a lot of guys who calve later and rough them through, once you add them up. Last year, mainly due to the good condition of the cows going into the previous breeding season, we got 13 sets of twins, of which 25 calves made it to weaning.

Even at todays dismal prices, the cheque from selling an extra dozen calves is not to be dismissed lightly. At an average of $500 that put an extra $6000 in the bank above and beyond what we should have had. In a year with good prices, it can be a lot more than that. We have never had a year without twins.

We've found over the years that the cost of culling cows can cancel out savings on inputs pretty fast. Every time we sell a cull cow for twenty cents a pound, and replace her with a heifer that we have paid to raise, we lose a lot more money than most think. By the time the replacement heifer has spent the first winter eating to grow, then a summer in the pasture with the bull that had to be bought for her and her sisters, another winter eating again before calving and weaning a calf (or not), she's racked up a pretty good bill that she will need to pay off in her lifetime.

High or low inputs aside, we've found that longevity is probably one of the most important traits a cow can have. They are not cheap to replace. They also need a basic level of care to be able to have the longevity that will keep us all in business.

Do the math carefully before jumping headfirst into a survival of the fittest management system. It's fine and dandy to select for efficiency, but we have to remember that we need to stay in business long enough to survive the culling that will have to take place.

[PureCountry]

Don't want to debate you Kato, but it's just a fact that your cows calving in January will need more feed - I mean actual pounds of hay, grain,corn or silage - than cows that calve in June. Your cows are heavy in calf then lactating through the coldest part of the winter, when feed requirements peak.

Also, with twins, if that works for you, great. But in my experience over the long run, cows that consistently have twins are heavy-milking, high performance kind of cows. Those are the type of cows that don't usually have a great number in the longevity stat column. If yours are different, I'd say good for you for selecting cows that have done it better than average. Are your cows consistently producing in this system to an age of 14-15?

[cswilson]

There's a big differance between selection and evolution unfortunately for some people the line is getting blurred. Some of these posts reming me of the story of a neighbor who was training his chore team to eat less-every day he fed them a bit less than the day before-just when he got them trained to live on nothing-they died. There is no hard fast % or number to adhere to when wintering cows-each operation has to do what is economically viable and biologically sound with the stock they raise-you can't feed yourself rich and you can't starve a profit. Don't believe everything you read either a neighbor bought some bulls from an outfit that supposedly raises them winterhardy-they came out of the cows thin and he lost one in the first cold snap. It probably isn't a bad plan no matter where you ranch to have some bark on your cows going into winter.