Does Democracy work at ABP? part 2

[rkaiser]

I bet I would be good at the political game too farmer_son, but I don't have the lifetime that it would take in the flawed democratic process of ABP.

I like the part where ABP "gathers delegates." LOL

Is that like the current delegates go out and hunt for folks that they know they can count on to support the status quo and talk them in to volunteering for a position? I wonder just how many of the delegates sitting at the AGM were actually elected to that position. There were two elections this year and a whole two extra nominees had their wings clipped. IN THE WHOLE PROVINCE.

Acclaimed Acclaimed Acclaimed 34 head according to my count. And how many of these were board members acclaimed --- At least 2/3rds according to my book, but maybe one of our ABP readers could help me out with the actual numbers.

[rkaiser]

I have to share some one of the lighter moments with ya all.

A few producers out there are actually hopeful enough to think that if they ask for a cut back of the levy, a directional levy, or the dreaded of all democratic phenomena the plebiscite, it will actually get some attention at the AGM.

What do you think happened?

We had a few laughs as my lone hand waved in the air when the plebiscite resolution came to a vote. The chairman giggled when he pointed two fingers toward me to let me know that there was actually another hand somewhere in the back of the room. There may have been a few more when the $1.00 direction levy was presented, but I did not bother looking back from my front row seat. I wondered after if my front row seat was planned so everyone could be entertained watching from behind. Like I suggested before, if any major change in this organization is to occur, it will have to come from the outside.

Being that the ABP gang doesn't want to buy old George a drink these days - it may be time for the other organizations to lobby directly to the ministers office.

[grassfarmer]

Lighter moments perhaps but also underlining the culture of obnoxious arrogance that rules the ABP. I know in our zone at nearly every fall producer meeting I've attended it has been evident. ABP officials and delegates s******ing like school girls at some of the views and comments made by producers. S******ing also at any producer who is having difficulty articulating their viewpoint because they were not used to public speaking. Even s******ing at one producer with a slight speech impediment who got exasperated trying to get his point across.
Yeah, real mature guys - it gives us all confidence in your ability to represent primary producers which in case you have forgotten is what the whole process is supposed to be about. Is it any wonder that the overwhelming majority of producers want nothing to do with ABP or Fall producer meetings which leads to the situation of most officials being elected by acclamation?

[rkaiser]

Thus the need to stop comparing ABP to some other democratic political situation in the free world. Most all organizations have elected officials who have no problem taking this mind manipulation and brushing it aside.

Most of the ABP delegates are well meaning and moral individuals who truly do a great job on things like environmental issues, promotion, and many other things which I do not mind spending a few bucks on in the way of a mandatory levy.

It is when this group gets involved in legislation, or in the case of BSE, regulation, that this flawed democratic structure becomes dangerous. This is when the politicians kick in to high gear and use their mind games over the regular, good meaning volunteers to cause trouble. This is when the self interests of the few dominate and cause their views to override the will of the general population.

How about this for an idea. If a resolution is passed in more than one, or for the sake of argument two zones, it automatically goes to that dreaded of all democratic process called a plebiscite, instead of the kangaroo court called the AGM. These resolutions could be mailed out to all producers in one document and require a certain number of replies to be carried or not. I am personally involved with groups that work in exactly this manner, and there is no excuse why this would not work for ABP.

The ruling body would then have to act responsibly to the people and either support that will or resign and form their own group with their own money!!!!!!

[farmers_son]

I guess ABP could use mail in ballots. The Canadian Wheat Board uses mail in ballots. It is pretty expensive to have the required auditors look after the process to protect the integrity of the vote. Even then mail in ballots are subject to problems like ballots being sent to people who are no longer producers, some producers getting more than one ballot and so on. You would have to contrast that process to electing representatives who then become informed on the issues and vote accordingly. Just because resolutions you favoured did not become ABP policy does not mean that there was a problem with the voting process. It could be that the resolution simply did not have the support of the majority, even if you thought it should have.

ABP delegates are just ordinary men and women who have the common distinction of being cattle producers. Some have big operations, some have very small operations. Some raise black cattle and some raise white cattle. Some are cow calf and some are feedlot, quite a few are both. You take a group of people like that from all over the province and put them in a room to vote on a resolution. The resolution is debated, pros and cons are discussed; that resolution gets only 1-5 votes out of voting body of 60-70 delegates. I would suggest the problem is not the voting process, the problem is there is no support for the resolution. Yes there may be a few vocal people promoting a certain policy but when the rubber hits the road the majority just aren’t buying it.

[rkaiser]

You started off pretty good batman, but your excuses sounded once again like those of the ruling body.

Do you think that a resolution calling for mail in ballots would get anywhere at the next AGM????? ------- LMAO

[rkaiser]

Actually after thinking about it for a bit ----- this democracy thing you speak of may actually work.

Only "elected" delegates get to vote at the AGM HMMM sounds like a plan to me. That would have put 8 newly elected people in the position of voting and maybe a few more who were not acclaimed in the last few years, including this nice guy who sat behind me at the meeting. We did not agree on the ABP regulatory BSE testing issue but supported each other on most of the other little things. ;-)

All of the zones but two had elections and it is obvious in the rest that no one trusts the thought of change enough to show up let alone run in these other zones.

A friend suggested that maybe the zone delegates should go back to their zones and report to their constituents on how they voted on the various resolutions. Sounds like a plan to me. Might actually make that "accountable" word become part of the process.........

For example - I wonder what the cow calf dominated Peace Country would react when their reps not only voted against - but spoke out against the simple idea of a cow calf committee to discuss that part of industry in the way that feeder council and industry council (which by the way include board members) function. The resolution for a cow calf committee did barely pass but without a board position........

[grassfarmer]

You manage to skirt my comments on democracy very well farmers_son, a true politician that I'm sure the ABP would be proud of.
The facts remain the ABP does not function in a democratic manner. You talk of the decisions being made by the majority when in fact they are being made by the minority many times in spite of the wishes of the ordinary producers.

Case in point I go to my fall producer meeting and present resolutions. Some are overwhelmingly approved by the people attending the meeting. Sometimes the same resolution is approved by producers at two out of the three meetings in a zone. Some of the zone delegates vote in favor of the resolutions. AGM happens and the resolutions are brought forward but soundly defeated - the delegates from my zone all vote against the resolution they supported two months earlier. What happens are the cult leaders spiking the cool-aid when they go to the AGM??
Of course in a democratic system the consequence of this would be that these delegates feel the wrath of the producers the next time their is an election. Of course that doesn't happen because the antics of the ABP AGM are neatly covered up by the refusal to publish resolutions that didn't pass. I believe this would be another producer resolution that was presented and soundly defeated in Calgary?
Another fact that makes a nonsense of your democracy theory is that the resolution concerning a plebescite was also overwhelming dismissed. Here was a chance to allow the majority to make the decision but ABP absolutely refuse to allow producers the right to participate.
As it occurs at the moment the average producer attending a fall producer meeting has zero chance of influencing policy or decisions made by the "producer organisation" he is funding.

Henceforth I am inclined to think any efforts to work within the current ABP system or to attempt to reform the organisation are wasted. Instead we should endeavor to destroy the organisation just like we would any other parasite negatively affecting our operations.

[farmers_son]

I am sorry you feel that way. I have put forward resolutions that were soundly defeated at the fall meetings. I have put forward resolutions that were unanimously passed at the fall meetings and then defeated at the AGM. I also have put forward some resolutions that were passed at the AGM that are still making a difference to our industry years later. It never occurred to me that because a resolution I favoured did not get majority approval that the organization should be destroyed.

I think what maybe happens in the situation you describe is in the course of the resolution being debated at the AGM information comes forward during the debate that changes people’s minds on a given issue. Someone will get up and make a point that the rest had not thought of before and just blow a resolution out of the water. I have been around a bit and have seen how my opinion can change from the local coffee shop conversation, then go to a provincial meeting and hear new points of view on the same issue, then go to a national meeting and get still more points of view. I think that shows I can listen and consider others points of view. That does not mean there is something in my cool aid. There are a lot of opinions out there, as many as there are cattle producers.

ABP is never, ever going to represent the views of every cattle producer on every issue.

[blackjack]

...farmers_son...you have been around abp for so long...i don't think you can see the forest cause of the trees...the people running the ship who do they make their money from...i would love to see this parasite organization be ivomeced