Does Democracy work at ABP? part 2

[rkaiser]

You started off pretty good batman, but your excuses sounded once again like those of the ruling body.

Do you think that a resolution calling for mail in ballots would get anywhere at the next AGM????? ------- LMAO

[rkaiser]

Actually after thinking about it for a bit ----- this democracy thing you speak of may actually work.

Only "elected" delegates get to vote at the AGM HMMM sounds like a plan to me. That would have put 8 newly elected people in the position of voting and maybe a few more who were not acclaimed in the last few years, including this nice guy who sat behind me at the meeting. We did not agree on the ABP regulatory BSE testing issue but supported each other on most of the other little things. ;-)

All of the zones but two had elections and it is obvious in the rest that no one trusts the thought of change enough to show up let alone run in these other zones.

A friend suggested that maybe the zone delegates should go back to their zones and report to their constituents on how they voted on the various resolutions. Sounds like a plan to me. Might actually make that "accountable" word become part of the process.........

For example - I wonder what the cow calf dominated Peace Country would react when their reps not only voted against - but spoke out against the simple idea of a cow calf committee to discuss that part of industry in the way that feeder council and industry council (which by the way include board members) function. The resolution for a cow calf committee did barely pass but without a board position........

[grassfarmer]

You manage to skirt my comments on democracy very well farmers_son, a true politician that I'm sure the ABP would be proud of.
The facts remain the ABP does not function in a democratic manner. You talk of the decisions being made by the majority when in fact they are being made by the minority many times in spite of the wishes of the ordinary producers.

Case in point I go to my fall producer meeting and present resolutions. Some are overwhelmingly approved by the people attending the meeting. Sometimes the same resolution is approved by producers at two out of the three meetings in a zone. Some of the zone delegates vote in favor of the resolutions. AGM happens and the resolutions are brought forward but soundly defeated - the delegates from my zone all vote against the resolution they supported two months earlier. What happens are the cult leaders spiking the cool-aid when they go to the AGM??
Of course in a democratic system the consequence of this would be that these delegates feel the wrath of the producers the next time their is an election. Of course that doesn't happen because the antics of the ABP AGM are neatly covered up by the refusal to publish resolutions that didn't pass. I believe this would be another producer resolution that was presented and soundly defeated in Calgary?
Another fact that makes a nonsense of your democracy theory is that the resolution concerning a plebescite was also overwhelming dismissed. Here was a chance to allow the majority to make the decision but ABP absolutely refuse to allow producers the right to participate.
As it occurs at the moment the average producer attending a fall producer meeting has zero chance of influencing policy or decisions made by the "producer organisation" he is funding.

Henceforth I am inclined to think any efforts to work within the current ABP system or to attempt to reform the organisation are wasted. Instead we should endeavor to destroy the organisation just like we would any other parasite negatively affecting our operations.

[farmers_son]

I am sorry you feel that way. I have put forward resolutions that were soundly defeated at the fall meetings. I have put forward resolutions that were unanimously passed at the fall meetings and then defeated at the AGM. I also have put forward some resolutions that were passed at the AGM that are still making a difference to our industry years later. It never occurred to me that because a resolution I favoured did not get majority approval that the organization should be destroyed.

I think what maybe happens in the situation you describe is in the course of the resolution being debated at the AGM information comes forward during the debate that changes people’s minds on a given issue. Someone will get up and make a point that the rest had not thought of before and just blow a resolution out of the water. I have been around a bit and have seen how my opinion can change from the local coffee shop conversation, then go to a provincial meeting and hear new points of view on the same issue, then go to a national meeting and get still more points of view. I think that shows I can listen and consider others points of view. That does not mean there is something in my cool aid. There are a lot of opinions out there, as many as there are cattle producers.

ABP is never, ever going to represent the views of every cattle producer on every issue.

[blackjack]

...farmers_son...you have been around abp for so long...i don't think you can see the forest cause of the trees...the people running the ship who do they make their money from...i would love to see this parasite organization be ivomeced

[northfarmer]

Randy, as a cow calf producer in the peace country it does frustrate me that reps from the peace country would not support getting a more focused discussion on the issues related to my segment...with board representation....but glad in the end that the resolution had at least passed.....

I do thank you for you and others who swim agianst the current in presenting new and different views on behalf of producers in an industry that seems very reluctant to change and where the concentration of of power remains in the hands of few at a level far from the value chains started at the cow/ calf level....

as an opearator of a mixed farm my agri-political involvement centers right now around issues in the grain trade where we have also struggled to bring about much needed change.....but change is happening...i look forward at some point to do the same in the cattle sector...but my family and my bunsiness can only afford some much time away...

IMHO ...as the number of actual producers decline because of the current economic reality (this applies to both grain annd cattle operations) the survivors that remain will find it far less acceptable to maintain the status quo of the past as their own success will be linked to their desire to think out side and act outside of the box....

in my area the most successful new producers are way out of the box...and the most successfull operator in my estimation regularly draws scorn from outsiders and many of those in the industry who favor the status quo....not suprisingly it is his operation and how he approaches his business that is influencing my long terms plans for my particpation in the cattle business....working completely out of the current realm in a much higher value chain.......

[coppertop]

Can't resist weighing in on this thread. Randy you are doing exactly what your supporters knew you would do, and that is standing your ground. Having said that, my best advise is to pick your hills to die on, ABP is an organization with a lot of clout.
You can bet there will be a new AG minister as soon as there is a Provincial election. If the commodity groups don't like a minister, Chairman of a particular board etc., they are not going to stay around for long.

If the cattle industry continues to lose producers in Alberta, ABP might not have much to do in the next decade !

[per]

Let's make sure that there is an industry in the future for organzations to fight over.

Once an organization becomes moribund, it looses it's relevance. With apropriate management moribund grass can become productive pasture. That is where we are with the ABP. While there is still some excellent work being carried out, the leadership seems to be stuck in a paradigm.

Some fresh ideas need to be tried and I am thankful we have an Ag Minister who recognizes that. Don't be so sure he won't be around after the next election. It is that kind of complacency that brings about revolution.

[coppertop]

George will be around after the next election but I highly doubt if he will still be Ag Minister. Far too many rumblings of discontent with him .

[rkaiser]

Geez - per - I had to look that one up. Moribund - at the point of death. At least now we have a word for the current ABP...LOL

Come now coppertop, who on earth could possible want old George out but Eric, Hughy and the gang? The pork guys each got a pretty major bailout cheque and the grain boys are enjoying the best year in years. I don't think George is stepping on the Dairy cows toes and all the honey people have to worry about with the bee population could not be his fault.

Do you truly feel that this moribund organization called ABP could have George ejected from his ministers chair?

[grassfarmer]

I suppose if there are rumblings about him he should feel his job security threatened. The only people I can see upset with him if he is attempting to change the status quo will be ABP and their backers the packers - hey that's got a ring to it maybe that should be the new title for ABP Alberta Backers of Packers.
Seriously why should he lose his job? has he harmed producers? - less so than previous ag ministers, has he harmed Albertan's in general? - hardly. It's a funny old game politics though you never can tell what will happen next.

[coppertop]

grassfarmer, randy etc. Historically, very few ministers retain the same portfolio after a provincial election. Shirley wanted to remain in Agriculture after the last Provincial election, but was sent off to Finance. Doug Horner was sent to Advanced Education, Iris Evans went from Health to Immigration etc.
Remember, after the election there will be many new faces in the PC Caucus. Jack Hayden will certainly go into cabinet, and the old guard have been advised they will not get a post, so many of them have opted to retire with the exception of Ty, who will never retire but will never be in cabinet again either.

If the PC's lose more seats in Calgary and Edmonton, the rural presence in cabinet will have to increase.

[jensend]

well then i guess it will be interesting to see if abp picks the next ag minister. if they do it's a sign that big business runs all of alberta.

[jensend]

to chance the old topic of democracy lately on agriville !!!
yesterday one more old cold with B-S-E in alberta .
this is normal to exspect with up to date testing on canadian cattle .
the r - calf never find them in the u-s-a .
buseniss as normal today for cattle going south in canada .

randy in alberta you would have been the perfect man to the abp board you stir up good idees on agiville canada .
happy holiday season all of you news makers for agriville i read it often
but make it short !!!!!

[rkaiser]

I was sure hoping that we would have had a few more of the ABP closet readers jump in on the thread and challenge some of this stuff.

Lots to say at the AGM when there are a whole bunch of folks to catch their backs. How could we entice some of the ABP mouthpieces to join in on some good old fashioned Agriville discussion? Wonder if Thiessen or Boone have computers?......... Maybe somebody could email them and tell them old Kaiser is running off at the mouth on agriville. They could jump in with some lame code name and put me in my place. LOL

I suggested that a forum be part of the ABP web site, but I guess that didn't go over to well. No opposition allowed - little chance of a resolution passing that is not mainstream - no place for a renegade board member - what the heck is a fellow sposed to do. Don't' really want to fight - just cause discussion..............

Poor old batman - feel bad picking on him by himself sometimes.