The Real Issue Facing Canadian Cattle Producers

[rkaiser]

Good day farmers_son. Sure was a good article you posted which completely dismisses all of the testing arguments on this board. LOL

Sounds more like the Japanese have a fight on their hands than anything. A fight like ours between the American packers trying to push their way on the Japanese government with help from NCBA and ABP/CCA. The fight to stop the consumer form being the decision maker in their requirements.

I know that you like to think you are smarter than the average consumer farmers_son, and feel that these lowly folk need to be led by you and your packer buddies, but I think that you will fail.

If you are so certain that you are right old buddy. Why not take the question to the Canadian consumer with an ABP Gallup poll? Present all of you points about why they do not need testing and then simply ask them if they would choose a tested product or a non tested product. Now that - my dear sir would end the discussion.

Like that would ever happen. ABP/CCA actually ask anybody anything.

We could even do a poll in the US of A to see how many customers we could gain rather than lose to the new cool laws. Would you like a BSE tested Canadian beef product, in your freezer Ms. Winfrey?

[per]

Maybe Ms. Winfrey would be interested in sponsering such a pole.

[rkaiser]

I always thought I was a German until indeed my grandmother said that I was of Polish decent Phil......

[per]

Being that I am Welsh, English is my second language! pole, poll Don't they come from the same Latin root or is that route?

[farmers_son]

Rkaiser: You know very well I have no packer buddies.

I was thinking of your poll. Please check out this site:

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/dalbook.html

It is the handbook of acceptable defects in food products. I am sure if you polled Mrs. American Consumer she would say she did not want any insect filth in her ground allspice, she would like less than 12% mold in her apple butter, fewer than 20 maggots in 100 grams of dried mushrooms, no rodent hairs in her peanut butter, less than 1 mg of mammalian feces in a pound of ground pepper. In fact if you did not conduct such a poll it would never even occur to Mrs. Consumer that her pepper had more than just pepper in it.

I get a lot from the discussions here on Agri-ville. What I got out of this discussion on BSE testing is that people still have strong beliefs concerning BSE testing, on all sides of the issue. Not one of us carries views that they believe are wrong. Everyone believes their views are right so that must mean another perspective is wrong even to the point of thinking the other person is a horses_ass, packer lover and so on. There are people who want BSE testing for marketing purposes, people who want BSE testing for food safety, people who do not want any BSE testing. There are other people out there who believe raising animals for food is morally wrong and actually sinful and that we are all going to hell in a hand basket. They have a point of view too.

So how does the world operate and not fall into conflict and chaos given that there all are those conflicting views and beliefs out there? When it comes to food the world uses science. And science does not poll the consumer for his or her views on food safety. If they did there would not be pepper on our retail shelves because it may not be possible to produce pepper without any risk of animal feces in the product. Science actually does not poll producers for their opinion either. Science is not a democracy and is not based on my opinion or your opinion or the majority of opinions on Agri-ville or Zone 6 or Alberta, or Montana or Japan either.

When Canada had its first case of BSE in May 2003, the world did not poll Alberta cattle producers or consumers either in Japan or the U.S. to get their opinions on what should be done about it. The world, represented by the OIE, sent in a International Review Committee made up by scientists from all over the world that made recommendations about what Canada had to do to ensure a safe food supply. The matter was not debated in the Alberta Legislature or the Canadian Parliament, we just did what the science said had to be done. It was not democratic at all. When the United States had their first case of BSE in December 2003, the response was not decided in the U.S. Congress or the Senate or any U.S. State like Montana. The world scientific community, the OIE, sent in the exact same International Review Committee with the addition of one scientist from, if I recall Britain, to review their food safety protocols and make recommendations, which they did. And this International Review Committee made up from renowned scientists from all over the world made the same recommendations for the United States as they did in Canada with the unusual additional comment that the United States could not view BSE as a Canadian problem, rather BSE had to be viewed as a North American problem.

Since then both the U.S. and Canada have implemented the food safety protocols demanded by the OIE and as a result both countries have been declared “Controlled Risk” for BSE and our beef is therefore safe to export around the world. We achieved that status because, among other things, we followed the BSE testing protocols outlined by the OIE as determined by the science not by any particular interest group.

When Canada and the U.S. discovered BSE in their herds, the media coverage that resulted was no different than telling the world there is mammalian feces in your pepper. To the credit of the Canadian consumer domestic consumption of beef actually increased during that period. And live cattle and beef trade has resumed with the United States even if it took too long for it to happen, given they have the same problem with their pepper we do. Even Japan has stopped looking for feces in its under 21 months old pepper and are following the OIE protocols for food safety. They recognize the young animals never have feces in the pepper. Talks are continuing to get Japan to only test OTM cattle which would see Japan consistently follow the OIE guidelines. Japan does this even in the face of what I would expect to be some resistance from the consumers because even Japan knows consumers cannot establish food safety guidelines and that food safety must be determined by science or the food system would fall into chaos.

Like it or not, when it comes to food safety, the customer is not always right and food safety is determined by science not a democracy. We have to rely on science to set how the bar is place when it comes to food safety, whether we talking about mammalian feces in the pepper, mold in the apple butter or BSE testing. If food safety were allowed to become a marketing issue than we would start to see companies put labels on their pepper product declaring it to be “Feces Free”. The very predictable response from consumers would not be to think that company’s pepper was any better but rather to never eat pepper again. I think the consumer response to BSE testing for marketing purposes would be exactly the same. However in the case of North American cattle, food safety is achieved by removal of the SRMs so the problem is all gone anyway and the science says the product is completely safe. But if companies insist on marketing pepper as “Feces Free” I sure would not want to be a pepper grower.

But hey…that is just me. Everyone has their own opinion and I respect that. And please pass the pepper, it just fine.

[farmers_son]

And by the way... Rkaiser asked what I thought Canada’s response would be to a BSE urine test that could be used on live cattle. At first I thought how would I know? Who does Rkaiser think I am, Prime Minister Stephen Harper? But after giving it quite a bit of thought I would presume that Canada’s response to such a test would be to follow the OIE recommendations. We have consistently followed the OIE recommendations and I see no reason why that would change no matter which government was in place at some point in the future when and if such a test was adopted.

[per]

Farmers_Son you are picking fly feces out of pepper. You underestimate the intelligence of the consumer. The very interesting book of acceptable amounts of debris is available to the public and some have avoided certain foods because of it. If it was possible to clean pepper 100%, I am sure someone would market that product and the industry would have to adapt or "re-educate" the consumer. I am not aware of any redeeming value of rodent hair (maybe fiber) but certainly, the bugs and the larva could be considered a source of protein. Most of us here are in the business of value adding sunshine into beeves or all the way to beef in a box. The old status quo is like driving down a muddy road stuck in a rut with no 4WD. No one here has argued that minimum OIE standards must not be met. I have heard arguments that we could set ourselves apart by exceeding the standard. I happen to agree with that. What you are afraid of, is it that some of the consumers will turn away from beef altogether. Again, I do not think they will, as they are more intelligent than you give them credit for. It would be nice if you could help steer the truck down the road and not into the ditch. We all have the same end goal in mind…” A viable and sustainable beef industry.”

[PureCountry]

Food safety should be left to science instead of democracy? That's absurd. They MUST coincide to ensure safety. You use the word science in the context of a warm, fuzzy-feeling happy place we all like to go to while dreaming about high-school chemistry days or something. The "Science" that monitors food safety on this continent is multi-BILLION dollar business, and if you think that they always hold our safety as priority #1, you are dillusional.

Thinking like that is exactly what tries to over-regulate our industry to death. There are millions of dollares lost from the farm gate every year, just because folks like me can't sell fresh, raw milk to my neighbors, can't take certain foods or goods to the farmer's market, and so on. What ever happened to free choice? If you go to a car salesman and get a creepy feeling as soon as he shakes your hand, you'll go elsewhere. If you get that feeling from someone selling farm-fresh meat, eggs or produce, go elsewhere. This type of agriculture is the only truly sustainable agriculture, and people saying science must dictate food safety without the help of democracy, are obviously blinded by more than just science.

[cakadu]

Farmers_son, I would argue that the average consumer does not have any idea about acceptable limits of things in their food i.e. that the "flax" in their whole wheat bread could be the % allowed for bug body parts etc. or that their honey has an allowable bee parts that is considered safe.

Most consumers would presume that their food is cleaned and 100% safe.

The thing is that things are considered safe until they aren't anymore. Take e-coli for example - what we know about it is barely understanding the tip of the iceberg. The more we understand about it, the more we realize that there is much more to learn and understand.

Sometimes I wonder if a few bug parts are the safer end of the things that end up in so many of our processed foods.

[DiamondSCattleCo]

"Like it or not, when it comes to food safety, the customer is not always right and food safety is determined by science not a democracy."

Oh oh, best not let the "real people" (versus us Agriville rebels) see this quote.

My god man, what you are saying is that the people no longer have control over what they feel is safe? Are you kidding me? What this leads to is fascism, pure and simple. So farmers_son, what freedom do I get to lose next? Why don't you pick one, since democratic choice is so distasteful to you.

Its pure ARROGANCE to think that science is the be all and end all. Do you not see how many times science has screwed up in the past few decades? Allowed us to consume or use something safe, and then come back said 'oh SNAP, that crap will kill you'. There are dozens of examples. There are also many examples the opposite direction.

Eesh, now I understand how the ABP thinks. 'To hell with the producer, he doesn't actually know whats good for him'. Perhaps this should be on a plaque at CCA headquarters?

Rod