Round Table wth RItz

[15444]

And it's not over Kato. It was almost 5 years ago when we bought a bag of milk replacer and found large amounts of dried blood in it. It was so bad the entire bag had a bright pink hue when it was mixed. Have a few neighbors that are dairy farmers and say that it is very common to find it in the milk replacer still.

You'll be happy to know that the calf ended up having other problems later in life, so it was shot and never entered the food supply...but how many still do?

[grassfarmer]

Ah, kato if only life were so simple. Your theoretic
chain of events all sounds very plausible and certain.
Unfortunately it isn't. You don't mention the large
scale experiment the UK Government initiated in the
early 90's to prove this chain of events could recreate
BSE. Starting with dairy embryos from the US reared
through the whole production chain you outlined -
they were unable to produce one case of BSE despite
trying with quite a large experimental herd over
nearly a decade. OOPs - how can that be? Because the
"contaminated feed" theory is the BS in BSE.

You mention also how the cohorts of the 1990s case
here were not tracked and eliminated - how could
they be? you have never had a credible traceability
system. Look at the 2003 case that started it all in
Alberta - they never did account for about half the
cohorts of that or subsequent cases - because bright
spark producers are adamant to this day that we don't
want or need a traceability or identification system.
Still I guess it's all the Government's fault and the
producers are all wise and all knowing?

[ASRG]

I guess we'll just have to let the courts decide based on the evidence?
If it was just "shit happens" then we will have to eat the results!
End of the story.
.....however.....if the courts decide....yes indeed the government boys dropped the ball.....it is a whole other ballgame?
I'm never going to be overly shy in what I believe.....I really don't like the government(federal/provincial/municipal)! Never have....never will!

[kato]

gf,

My theoretical chain of events was strong enough to convince Ridley to settle out of court for six million dollars. It was also strong enough to withstand more than eight trips to court and counting. It was also strong enough to be the cause of our widespread feed ban, even though it came too late.

For being theoretical, it's held up pretty well, I'd say.

If, as the British trial says, contaminated feed is not the issue, then why is there a feed ban? And why did the number of infected cases drop as a result of said ban?

For that matter, why would there be a problem importing cattle from a BSE country either. After all, if the British trial is to be believed, it wouldn't matter if a contaminated cow was rendered into feed.

??????

[SADIE]

GF--I guess it is my time to step in SINCE YOU BROUGHT IT UP AGAIN. Individual Animal ID and traceability would be thing but the RFID eartag fiasco is a gong show. It is now out on Agriville and across the country. Pieces of plastic stuck through the cartilage in the cows/bulls or bison ear is nothing but short term event.

I repeat GF a short term event. It is proven by evidence on Agriville that the testing done was just a FEEDLOT TAG ONLY and the push from all arms of CCIA, CCA, ABP, SCA Provinicial and federal Government was LONG TERM ID in the cow-herd.

The shit hit the fan on this project in the PFRA lands of Saskatchewan. YEP Saskatchewan I now know has the majority of the PFRA lands on the prairies. 62 pastures and the Button Cops were deployed at take in at these pastures. New employment. Bingo the patrons experienced this problem the first and I am proud that I was challanged. Many patrons sold off the cow-herd the first couple of years of this --the smaller operators. There were told to get big, buy big new chutes, neck extenders or get beat up, hands busted from swinging heads of cows and bulls. The first wave of PFRA pastrons left the industry. By the way in PFRA pastures there was impiccable ability to track any animal befause of Mantitory brand, individual dangle tag ID, many now with Metal Tag ID(Before and Now) and then the FXXing BUTTON. Patrons went to cattlegroups and CCIA and government with their concerns but no one would listen. Government only listens to associations and not individuals.

Along our journey the last two months of movement of 2600 pasture patrons to form a new association out of need, survival so that the little operator can keep a small amount of grass to keep his/mixed farm/ranch operation comments have been said to our strong working group that too much decisions were made that affected PFRA pasture patrons and a unified group should have been organized years ago.

Non-PFRA cattlemen that are smaller numbers have asked to join as an associate member so they feel they could have represetation in the beef cattle industry as well.

The first hurtle the first year is to get this PFRA pasture patrons association organized to hopefully keep the pasture managers and riders in place. Maybe save some native prairie the last frontier in Saskatchewan. There is now a campaign to SAVE THE SASKATCHEWAN FLOWER ---Emblem the PRAIRIE LILY in ths effort as well.

Year two of the organation if successful it might be possible to be a unified voice on some other issues to challange. ie RFID eartag could start at CCIA-----Cattle Cull In Auction for cows and Feedlot level for the calf herd.

[SADIE]

Another important BUllshit issue that the Government deployed especially in the PFRA pastures was the testing of scanning these Fxxxing buttons on arrival with shute readers. Several pastures were selected and the push was on---scan the 15 digit numbers and report to CCIA data base in Calgary. Lots of media attention in the Western Producer. The results were poor and now there is nothing.

What effect did it have. Made that first wave of PFRA pasture patrons throw up their arms in frustration. Faulty tags, Scanners, Computer reports to data base---what is next. They exoded the industry.

The real law of the land and it shows up in the PFRA PICKLE POEM is that the Provincial Government has to legally deal with the PFRA pasture patrons first. If that level is weakened and it has already Some pastures were 60 patrons 4 years ago and now down to 30. Many frustrated patrons last November when the first 10 pastures were announced. There is alot of anxiety out there across this province. The young Managers and RIders all scared on the future of their jobs. They all got letters that told them "GAG CLAUSE" to protect any pension payout.

IF the patron level weakens to the point of collapse then the lined up buyers want in. First Nations, Hutterite Colonies in areas of seeded grass lands, The big cattle boys from Alberta, Investors from all over the world come in.

That is the picture, that is why there is a huge groundswell movement of PFRA pasture patrons on organizing into a collective group.

[grassfarmer]

OK kato I'll quit after this post and we can agree to
disagree. Two big holes in the "contaminated feed"
theory - number 1 is even if it could spread this way
there needed to be an original cause. Number 2 is if
feed bans work why didn't the 1988 feed ban in the
UK work necessitating an "enhanced ban many years
later?"
If these theories were sound why have they only ever
been able to transmit BSE to animals by injecting BSE
contaminated material directly into that other animal?
Truth is the science is not proven on this - the work
of Mark Purdey and some of the stuff Kathy airs on
here is probably closer to the truth than the official
version.

Legal opinion is just that - legal opinion - it does not
replace science. As far as I can see Mr Pallett has
done a good enough job pursuing the case but the
aim of the class action law suit is really to catch the
government out for not following advice it maybe
should have done regarding the risk of BSE.
It has nothing to do with proving to the world the
cause of BSE, how it transmits and how this great
mystery was all solved by a lawyer and a handful of
ranchers on an internet forum. I'm sure even
Cameron wouldn't think he could win the case if it
depended on establishing the causes, transmission
methods and solutions to BSE as a disease.

[kato]

Agree to disagree. Good discussion, though, wasn't it?

The thing about it is that if the feed transmission theory was disproved, then all the closed borders, draconian measures, rule changes regarding srms, feed bans, and trade disputes would be null and void. IMHO, there are people who have benefited by all this nonsense, and who do not want this to happen.

In the meantime, we've been done wrong, as the current science stands, and deserve better. The borders were closed according to the best current science, and we lost our shirts due to the best current science. So we have to go forward under the best current science.

It's what we have to work with.

[rkaiser]

Just had a bit of time this morning and wanted to ad a few minor points to a very good discussion.

I don't really see a lot of disagreement in this thread. Blaming the government --???? I would call it more of a responsibility issue; and yes the government needs to be held accountable.

The feed ban was working in the UK when we got hit and it needed to be in place here a lot sooner to garner confidence with customers.

Would a feed ban have stopped the minor hiccup we had, probably not. And it was a minor hiccup and not a the disaster that everyone predicted. Still can't even prove a single death in the UK due to eating a BSE animal let alone anything in Canada. The death and injury was with the producers and nothing more.

Should the ranchers who were trying to make a buck on imported genetics be blamed as grassfarmer suggests. I don't think so. They were following laws that are made by government are they not.

So blaming is getting us nowhere. But responsibility of government seems to be moving along in the law courts and I say, keep it moving. Maybe some of those who truly suffered will be compensated, --- somewhat.

As far as the BS in BSE being feed transmission GF. I am not sure if you were around when Mark Purdey was visiting with us in Rimbey and a few other local communities or not. Mark looked us in the eye and talked of the good of the feed ban. His thoughts were not so much glued on the transmission of some disease as our friend Cameron is stuck on (for an alternative good reason might I ad), but for reasons of contamination by way of concentrated heavy metal distribution from one BSE animal to the next. According to Mark and others, the metals that build up in a BSE animal - or I believe any spongiform encephalopathy victim - may make their way to the brain just as the metals made their way to the original occupants brain in lower concentration from feed sources.

Misformed prions are naturally occurring prion "cleaners" that can not get rid of the high concentration of rouge metals in animals. How much more simple can it get than that.

I think the best test that could be done would be to feed high concentrations of heavy metals to some poor herbivore victims. Too simple for those who have, and continue to profit from making this into a rocket science issue.

Cheers

[ASRG]

Well Randy...that f***ing "hiccup" actually was a magic bullet for me! That was the day I decided "Hey these bastards aren't going to do the right thing" and started my long slide into quitting!
Now really....who gives a shit...right?
Well...I was only one of several thousands! The day will come when beef will be something we read about in the history books!

[kato]

Hey Randy, I was wondering where you'd got to. ;-) Bout time we heard from you.

That being said, it was a lot more than a hiccup for us too. It cost us the next generation on this farm. It cost us a good chunk of money, and it pretty much cost us ten years. We can't get the sons back on the farm, or the ten years back, but a little cash would sure help out the retirement.

It's within the power of Mr.Ritz and his boss to make this happen. All he has to do is allow the class action suit to go to the mediator.

[grassfarmer]

Randy you forget that you are relative newbies to BSE
in Canada. I met Mark twice in Canada but was
following his stuff right through the 90s in the UK.

[rkaiser]

The minor hiccup I am referring to is the human suffering bullshit that BSE was supposed to cause.
With no proof of any single case of human death caused by eating a BSE cow, how is hiccup not the word.

On the producer side - you re right Kato, a lot more than hiccups and how many deaths from suicide in both Canada and Great Britain.

All in Cameron's pile of documents I am sure.

As for giving up ARSG - can't blame you. Not the case for this man however. The beef industry will be my life til the day that the Universe decides to bring me back as a budgie in my next life.

[ASRG]

We all get old. We all quit one way or the other.
Prior to the BSE gong show I thought my government actually was fair and gave a rip about it's citizens! I was a true believer in Canada......okay, okay....I was pretty naive!
BSE changed me. It changed how I viewed the Canadian government and Canada!
In my opinion the Canadian government ruined the cattle industry. They ended it for a lot of cattle producers and they destroyed the future for a lot of kids who would have raised cattle!
And then these paper pushing wonders just try to shirk any and all responsibility! No consequences....no one went down the road....no one suffered one red cent!
They killed the future for a lot of people....in a really fair world they would be lined up against the wall and shot.

[kato]

This morning the news said that Mr Ritz was going to make a big announcement today about animal health and something good for the economy.

Why was my first thought. "I wonder how much we're going to have to pay this time?"

Must hold back the cynicism... must hold back the cynicism... must hold back... ah forget it. It's more likely to be bad news for cattle producers than good...

Please prove me wrong..

And Randy.. don't come back as a budgie. They only live about 7 years. ;-) That's not enough time to get up to an acceptable amount of mischief.