Looking for some good people...

[rkaiser]

Just a little clarification. This action is pre trial and will not require a trip to Toronto. This list of people is being compiled, and the lawyers will then come to the people, close to their home.

Sept. 2014 is the trial date, and mediation is pretty much out of the question now. Our job now is to help our friend Cameron get everything he needs to cause justice to prevail.

Semper Ad Meliora

And always - the positive approach.

Hugz R

[cpallett]

Thanks Kato, but some clarification is required here.

The trial date has indeed been tentatively set for September 2014. The list of producers we are trying to put together now is not for trial, but rather for what we call 'examination for discovery'. Nobody has to come to Toronto for a day. I would much, much rather travel to you, and the Feds have agreed. Nice to get out of this loony bin from time-to-time.

We have made a deal with the Feds that they will 'examine' (ask questions for one day or less) producers from various types of operations. In exchange, I get to examine someone (for two weeks) who actually had decision-making power at relevant times and extensive knowledge of the facts.

The Feds want to try and tie down the financial damages suffered by different operators in different parts of the country, which makes a lot of sense to me. We have common ground here in trying to fix a compensation and claims process that is fair, reasonable and cost-effective across a broad range of operation types and geography, should we succeed on liability.

So, the deal is that those producers that fit the bill and want to participate will be asked to provide financial statements and tax returns from 2000 forward, and will be asked questions for no more than a day on the financial effects of BSE on their operation by a lawyer from Justice Canada.

There are some serious time constraints involved. I am to provide the Feds with the names of willing participants by the end of the month (March) and the examinations are to be completed by September of this year. We will set a time and place that is convenient to you.

Here is the list once more:

1. Someone from a cow-calf operation calving more than 50 cows on an annual basis.

2. Someone from a backgrounder operation raising/selling more than 100 head annually.

3. Someone from a large (selling more than 10,000 head annually), Alberta, beef feedlot operation.

4. Someone from a smaller (selling less than 500 head annually) feedlot operation.

5. A veal producer selling more than 150 finished veal calves annually.

6. A large (greater than 250 milking cows / cattle may not be registered with a dairy breed association and/or may be on a recognized, milk recording program) dairy producer

7. A small (less than 50 milking cows / cattle may be registered with a dairy breed association and/or may be on a recognized, milk recording program) dairy producer

8. A producer, with substantial sales of dairy cattle for breeding purposes.

9. A producer with substantial sales of beef cattle for breeding purposes.

Numbers 1,2 and 4 have already been filled by some very capable and experienced producers, but Larry if you are interested in number 9, we'd love to have you.

Any help with getting a veal producer 'selling more than 150 finished veal calves annually' (#5) would be gratefully accepted as I am ashamed to admit that I don't know a single solitary one.

In fact, I could use all the help I can get, period.

The numbers provided on the list are all as at May 20, 2003.

Many thanks and all the best.

[grassfarmer]

Cameron, I hope you can find time in your busy
schedule to watch that Savory video I posted the link
to. I think his part about reductionist thinking versus
holistic thinking is very apt to this debate too.
The worst year financially since BSE in 2003 for most
in the west would be 2009. Are the feds gathering the
information from producers interested in looking that
far after 2003? If they are I think it would be tough to
tie 2009's problems closely to BSE without also
including 2010, 11 and 12 which showed markedly
better returns.
My point is, like in Savory's presentation if you set all
the information up side by side you'd find that "BSE"
was not the one simple, single cause of hardship in
the years post 2003. Darrin Qualman did the work to
prove that in his Cattle Crisis document for the NFU.

Perfecho, maybe you just had the wrong kind of cattle
to sell? Our bull selling business has grown year on
year since 2003. The breeding cattle herd grew
markedly for the first few years after BSE due to the
low value of cull cows so more bulls were in use not
less. Sure plenty guys kept older bulls instead of
changing them so often but I don't see that as a bad
thing. Maybe the commercial producers were cutting
out unnecessary expense by turning away from the
frivolity and cosmetic nonsense of the conventional
purebred sector? That too is a good thing in my book.
Nobody bailed out the Simmental breeders when the
demand fell for their long legged, spotted cattle. No
one bailed out the hereford breeders when their
breed fell from grace largely due to fashion. I think if
you want to play the conventional purebred "game"
you should live by the fads and fashions that govern
it.

[cpallett]

Iain,

Watched the Savory video. Excellent. Already posted on the other thread.

Nobody with a lick of common sense says that BSE is the single cause of current difficulties in the Canadian cattle industry (have you read the Sept. 2012 CAPI report?).

On the other hand, nobody with a lick of common sense claims that producers have been fully compensated for the financial hardship that BSE did cause.

We're not seeking more than producers are entitled to, but admittedly it is a complex equation.

[wd40]

You need to get the list of employees that worked in the Provincial lab during those days of discovery.
I met a young vet (I think) in about 2004 who worked at the Prov. lab who said there was strong evidence of a possible mix up of the controlled sample of prions and the actual cow’s sample.
When a few of those working there became aware, and began to make noise, they were threatened with termination and some eventually were removed. Being a vet she said her license would be revoked.

[burnt]

Cameron, do you still have the contact info of the Federal Inspector that we spoke to?

[perfecho]

Well, GF, must be great to have all the answers and right cattle.
We were just getting going, developing our market, when BSE hit...and it kicked! We are fine now, thank you...think even some of your customers have come this way.... check out www.evgelbvieh.com...maybe thre is something there for you ;-)

[kato]

We must also remember that without the political environment set up by the BSE fiasco, there would have been no traction for bringing in MCOOL.

And it just keeps on going....

[grassfarmer]

I'm sure the Feds will be impressed with the
magnitude of your hardship perfecto. $19,000 bulls,
$16,000 cows. These prices sound like they could
ruin a guy.

[perfecho]

Even with those prices (and it was only 1 bull...1 cow, and real prices)...I will still not make back what I lost. I just got lucky! (And sold the factory…which you have to do when semi-retiring)
But it really isn't about what I lost.. it’s about what we lost in the backbone of our country. The loss of belief that our Gov. is there to do the "right thing". The loss of people that were on the verge of retiring and lost; not because of their doing, but someone else’s. You and I will do OK, GF, Randy will keep forging away and find a way; but there were some that couldn't. We are asked to believe in the system, rebel rousers if we don't...but the system takes care of the system, not those who feed it.
Had asked a breeder that was in a long time before I was...would have a longer record of financials before BSE, to help out with their records. Their response was that they really wanted to leave it the past...it was painful and they really would rather forget it.
I don’t fault them, they have their reasons, just as I have mine....but each time we don’t stand up, we lose a little more power.
Sounds soap boxy…but hey…