Ray to Grassfarmer ... RFID

[RaySeidel]

Hello Grassfarmer...I chanced on this
site and see you have an interest in
RFID.

You are right about "speed of commerce".
We are installing a "new concept" which
reads Cattle ( 50)as they enter and
stand on a huge weighbridge".
It operates at 134.2kHz and uses the HDX
principle.

In Australia we have chosen this as the
"better Radio system"...

As you will have found the UHF systems
have issues of "body" shielding.

You may be interested to let me describe
this better to you...I am sure you will
find it an interesting and intoxicating
subject.

I am not selling anything to you ... in
the spirit of you and other members
seeing things from another viewpoint...

I choose to discuss what we are doing.
If I can insert pictures to this post it
will all be self explainable...I will
try.

Our design issues pivot around causes of
"failure to read"... our general concept
draws on the Massive Array, Focused
energy and Adaptive behaviour.

Intellectual property impedes what I can
detail however you may find a discussion
useful.

Kind Regards
Ray

[Happytrails]

No salesmen or JW's.

[burnt]

That's okay - grassfarmer could use a ray!

[grassfarmer]

Apologies for the rude welcome you got from my
fellow posters. Sure I'd be interested in hearing from
someone that is working on a solution to tag reading.
Where are you located and how far along in the
development stage are you with workable readers for
auction type situations? Are you using the same type
of EID tags that we have?

[RaySeidel]

Thanks Grassfarmer ...

I try attach "Bucket Pictures" to show
where we are at.

http://s1272.beta.photobucket.com/user/R
aySeidel/library/#

This is a WeighBridge surrounded by RFID
Readers... WE not quite there yet and
now tuning the system.

We achieving 3M "AlleyWay/Bridge width"

Yes we use same HDX tags you do...we
(Australia) do not use FDX tags as they
have issues.

Should I speak more to you all?

Our failures are as interesting as our
successes...

Kind Regards
Ray

[ALLFARMER]

Ray if your offering free plane tickets to Australia I
am the one you should be talking to.

[grassfarmer]

I should have mentioned Ray that if you are posting
off a Mac the pictures likely won't show up. Maybe
you have a solution to the archaic technology this site
runs on?

[RaySeidel]

Ok, GrassFarmer (what is your real
name?)... my email address is_

ray.l.seidel@gmail.com

Echo back your email address and I send
you some pictures and could you
"somehow" attach them to this thread for
me.

As we speak, we are tuning up this Sale-
yard system. It still "hot off the
design table"... but we are confident
for a good outcome for reading all
readable tags... a lot of adaptions are
happening here.

Later we hope (if they have enough
money) for our client to place single
lane readers as the beasts enter
(inducted) off the trucks... now they
will know which animals are on the
property(sale-yard)

As the lots are reloaded onto trucks
through other loading ramps (with portal
lane-way readers) we want them to have
other (exiting) RFID reader

The sale yard will then know "who came
in and who left"... these transactions
are internet relayed to the master data
base which tracks all Australia's
movements...etc.

Sure, it not going to be a cheap thing
to do all this but it is a wish list
that must be fulfilled here (and maybe
later over there with you!) ... one
day...one day.

As you see the RFID readers are
substantial things... we draw on some
concepts of chaotic behaviour to swirl a
detection volume through the soon
stationary weighbridge lot...if the
animals won't or cannot move then we
move the Radio field ... like an
invisible moving plasma ball.

More than one way to skin a cat, as they
say.

Kind Regards
Ray

[SADIE]

Ray---I copied this from your first thread.

It operates at 134.2kHz and uses the HDX principle.

Question: does that mean it is on an Allflex manufactured Plastic eartag with the metal washer that attaches the stem on the the male component??

[RaySeidel]

Hello Sadie...

I think you might be referring to an
earlier generation HDX (Half Duplex) tag
....where if I recall the male "piercing
part" has a sharp metal "nipple"....like
a small arrow head? ...yes/no?

I have never seen a "metal washer" as a
recognizable part ...a sketch or image
would be useful... have you one with you
now?

you speak of a literal metal washer?? ,
perhaps this is a variant they tried for
longevity...

The HDX and FDX (Full Duplex) tags look
identical... neither is crystal
controlled but are rather "free running
oscillators at 134.2kHz" ...

and here be one (of many issues) that we
are confronted with. Detuning due to
temperature, Detuning due to "crushing"
damage, Detuning due to spurious metal
fragments....for example cause tags to
emit at a different frequency than they
should...and therefore any/some Reader
may not hear them.

such things give alarm to the user as he
declares that particular cow's ear tag
faulty (which it technically
is)...but...but ... but

Low Frequency RFID has some issues all
it's own... ice and snow ("cold" is a
relevant issue for you over there...here
it is heat)

I recall testing a similar piercing
nipple which we found "retuned" the
oscillatory inductance of the tag as the
metal spear point entered the front half
(or business end) of the tag...

Not a good thing electronically but
probably good for "lancing through
leather"... not seen one such
recently....I am thinking "do-do (the
extinct bird!"

I recall a time when the concept of "co-
mingelling" was relevant for you, that
is some herds had HDX others FDX and
Fence/wand Readers had to be able to
read both...bit of a nightmare there but
achievable...

Bit like cows and wolves in the same
herd/pack/truck ... every one was/is
indecisive trying to reach a conclusion
as to which is the better system to
adopt...

Lot of money wasted world wide in the
quest for best... Australia draws line
in the sand ...forget FDX we say HDX is
way to go and I think/know it was right
choice.

I think we should dwell longer on some
basics... it should help us all perhaps
?

Let us clear up this "metal ring
business first" ... describe the issue
more fully.

Kind Regards
Ray

[grassfarmer]

Here hopefully will appear some of Ray's pictures. I'll let him explain what they show.
<a href="http://s481.photobucket.com/albums/rr175/ieaitken/?action=view&current=SAM_2040_zpsca874efd. jpg" target="_blank"></a>

I would be interested in knowing the timeline on having the system up and running commercially, a ballpark cost of the system for say an auction mart situation. Also is there Government funding/backing behind this development in Australia or is it all free enterprise?

[grassfarmer]

Picture posting reminder:
Go to your photobucket library, select the picture you want then click(or Ctrl C)on the HTML code (3rd box down)for that picture and it will copy it . Then paste it into the Agriville box(Ctrl V). Seems to me that you need to type a word or two of text in the Agriville box before pasting the code in.
I couldn't get it to work on the MAC but it does with a PC.

[SADIE]

<a href="http://s1138.beta.photobucket.com/user/kphaber/media/img187.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n523/kphaber/img187.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo img187.jpg"/></a>

My questions to you Ray.

Are we still talking an eartag?

Is the Manutfacturer Allflex?

What are the environmental Operating conditions?---What are the specs on the product you are using as far as operating conditions.

Our climate in Canada is much different than in Australia. Correct?

Is this product if it is an eartag is it plastic? If it is this type of product there is likely a washer in the center of the Male component that is then covered with plastic. That is the base for the pin that pierces the cartilage in the ear of the animal.

Have these products been tested in Canadian winters that the temp with a wind reaches much lower than 0C to 50 C conditions.

If it is not an eartag and an implant under the skin than I will start to take interest. If it is another type of plastic allflex style eartag than back to the same problems identified in the past. Short term tag only. Short term animal Id and traceability.

[RaySeidel]

Hello Sadie

I think you "should not" pierce either
of the two cartlige ribs in the ear
...but rather into the webbing between
these ribs.... I will double check this
for you.

Yes, the tags "like" those shown
"/1mg137 "in your "Bucket.

This "Button" concept is duplicated
world wide.

I starting to see how to use this
"Bucket thing"...it seems if I click on
the image you publish (as above) then I
can scan/roll/peek at ALL your other
images in this Bucket... I better remove
my holiday Bucket snapshots of the wife
and her sheep!!! (thanks GrassFarmer)

Concerning ISO 1175/84 compliance, these
documents are like a recipe for making
your own tag there are many companies
who make tags...

how they make them is their "look-out"
provided they comply with the basics.

However, here each tag type must be
"type approved" or you/us simply will
not be able to move/buy/sell beasts...

Concerning glass capsule implants, they
ok for dogs/cats/pets BUT implants into
cattle not allowed as if they break it
introduces splinters of glass into the
food chain.

Besides, at the Abattoir, it is
difficult to "find" these little glass
capsules... and doing so slows down the
"speed of commerce"

Also the ceramic Bolas RFID tags are not
favoured (in breeding bulls is ok but
not in industrial food chain meat)...
again hard to find in a carcass.

I think your concern relates to
temperature? ... do these Buttons stop
working outside the limits 0-50
degrees... (not sure this spread is an
ISO criteria, I will check for you)

At one psst time we put Tags in the
refrigerator to mimic the
"CanadianCold", pretty sure they kept
working well down below 0 degrees...I
will check... yes we shared your concern
on this.

We do know that temperature does "detune
all types of tags as the copper wire
shrinks/expands slightly to shift the
free running oscillator frequency (134.2
/- 3khz...I think)

We intend to employ three receiver
channels 132/1134/136 khz to catch these
off tune tags...this is a lesson we
learnt when pondering what causes "non-
reads"...you/others will benefit from
this.

Sadie, we do not make tags... we are
developing our own Readers and must deal
with what we are given or presented with
in the way of what's in the cows ear...
all a bit hard, but that's how it is.

Again, I just not sure about this "metal
washer business" show me one.
I think you are concerned about tags
falling out as well as tags not custom
made for Canada?

Use Bucket (but take care)

GrassFarmer, we are 2/3 in our
venture... our own money...our own
risk... we don't sleep well at night
however we are bravely confident...we
are a David up against Goliath's...bring
it on...

Oh, yes Sadie, I am typing in shorts
it's 32 degrees here... what is that
white stuff outside your window?

Kind Regards
Ray

[grassfarmer]

You make a good point about photo bucket Ray. This
site really is from the dark ages - half the time
pictures/videos don't show up and if they do then
your entire photobucket account is available to the
world. I removed the pictures accordingly - sorry.

I think Sadies point about the operating temperature
range 0-50C on the ISO is based on his belief that the
tags don't last/stay on when it is that cold. I don't
know if he has ever checked to see if what they really
mean is the RF part doesn't work outside that
temperature range. Did you ever check that Sadie?