Cow size

[rkaiser]

Just under 800 pounds after a couple of days with a bale feeder and water per. 3 more calves out of the same mating and all the other three were heifers as well. The other three were between 70 and 72 pounds and the three mommas were a tad bigger than the one I wrote about. Don't have a camera right now, so I guess you will just have to come for a visit old buddy.

Randy

[per]

Calving, crop, then visit. I drove by my neighbors Welsh Black calves yesterday. They are a bunch of crackerjacks.

Phil

[rkaiser]

And just what else would you expect Phil..... WINK

Randy

[farmers_son]

Actually most new born calves are crackerjacks…just like puppies.

I checked out the link smcgrath76 provided. Some comments:

I noted the slide comparing cow weight to dry matter intake. In both the early and late gestataion examples the smaller cow consumed slightly more dry matter as a percentage of her weight when compared to the larger cow. The big cow was more efficient.

Using the information on the slides I could keep 20% more cows if I sold my 1400 pound cows and replaced them with 1030 pound cows. To be equal the smaller cows would have to wean 500 pound calves to equal the big cows weaning 600 pound calves. If the small cow herd can average more than 500 pounds weaned then the advantage goes to them.

However as mentioned in this thread the smaller cow is limited to what bull she can be safely bred too. A bigger bull should wean a bigger calf and it takes a bigger cow to push that calf out. My heifers can calve a 90 pound calf unassisted and the cows can calve 120-130 with no problem. I think that gives me an advantage when choosing a bull. I have helped 3 cows to calve so far this year which is not that much trouble. My cows are quiet and easy to handle even if they are big. I calved one out in the field while she lay there.

If you retain ownership until slaughter then weaning weight is not the be all, end all. Much of the cash cost is incurred when the calf is on feed and the calf that does good in the feedlot will be the most profitable overall, irrespective of cow size. It is my experience that a good growthy calf is the money maker in the feedlot. The little 70 pound calf at birth can take longer to feed, although they all get to slaughter weight eventually.

I strongly disagree with the statement in the slide presentation that cow size is the most important factor affecting profitability. I think reproductive performance is far more important and that there is more variability between cows regarding reproductive efficiency than there is regarding cow size/efficiency. No matter what size the cow is if she does not calve and get back into calf then she is not making you money that year and the next. My opinion. I think if we examined our herds objectively we would find too many cows/heifers walking around without a calf at their side. No money in that.

[per]

So that leads to a question. Does weight matter or is the conversation around efficiency? When would you weigh you cow to gauge her weight? Empty of feed and water, empty of calf, full, pregnant, spring, fall? An easy fleshing cow that brings home a soggy calf should be the goal no matter the size and disposition of the cow. All the other traits are personal management choices.

That Drovers site was quite interesting, thanks for the link.

[per]

I also meant to say that your analysis F_s was pretty much right on the money especially the last point on reproduction. No hope of profit on a cow calf operation if the cow doesn't have a calf.

[grassfarmer]

F_S, I note your comments on size and that the most expense going into the steer is in the feedlot. That is very much the way many think - but if barley hits $300T this fall perhaps your corn-burner genetics won't look so attractive?

Per, I think when we discuss cow weight it is usually based on the dry (weaned cow in the fall) weight.

[smcgrath76]

A couple of things we think about. Matching the cow to the resource base/production system is more important than actual size. If cows fit the production system, they will tend to end up where they need to be. This means for our place that our cows are getting smaller. It is also important to differentiate between making the environment fit the cow (they are thin so I will haul an extra bale) vs. making the cow fit the environment. I think for producers with a lot of resources (particularly a grain farm with waste products) larger cows can make a lot of sense. Early calvers might fall into that group too. For us somewhere a bit smaller just works better.
Interesting work has shown that producers who sell weaned calves should value reproduction;production;product(carcass) at 10:2:1. Retained ownership guys are at 2:1:1 and full value chain players are as high as 1:1:2. Again, this just confirms that the cow needs to fit the ranch, the ranch doesn't need to fit the cow.

[grassfarmer]

Another thing I would dispute is the assumption that big cows breed big calves and small ones small calves. I bought a bunch of registered red Angus cows at a reduction and am just running them as commercial cows. These will be my heaviest cows, i'm sure some will top 1600lbs but they will certainly average 1450lbs. Absolutely consistent breeders of calves weighing under 80lbs. One smaller cow (1350lbs) had a 50lb calf last year - as a mature cow! These calves don't grow big either they are just small cattle out of huge mothers. Maybe the breeder was moving in the right (in my opinion) direction with downsizing his cattle - they make for damn inefficient cows though and I'm glad I only have a few left. Most cows were culled out in the first two years because they couldn't live in my system. Funny that because the breeder advertises his bulls as being from a forage raised herd!

[farmers_son]

Most would agree that there is not one best size of cow, although I believe the gist of the slide presentation in the link was that a Leachman bull would breed a “right sized” cow (whatever that is).

Grassfarmer is correct to point out the cost of barley and corn burner genetics. However it needs to be also pointed out that the high cost of feed has changed the way weaned calves are priced. In the fall of 2000 when barley was cheap there was a 30 cent per pound slide between 450-500 and 600 pound calves. A 475 pound calf could bring within $40 a head of the larger 600 pound plus calf. Last fall there was not much price per pound difference between any of the calves and the 100 pound heavier calf would have brought $100 more dollars, depending on the sale day. As the price of feed continues to rise I think you will more of that in the fall of 2008 and the dollar per head advantage of the heavier calf will be even greater. Feedlots are going to severely discount any type of calf that is not an easy feeder.

[smcgrath76]

LOL. I think the Leachman story is part of the beauty of bankrolling the presentation. I think that big calves are good, more calves are better, and more big calves are better yet. The smaller the cow that can do that job the better it is. The balance is the tricky part. It is proven that curve bender genetics (low BW, High Growth) result in smaller mature size cows (in general).
For example if I can run 110 smaller cows, versus 100 larger cows that both raise the same weight of calf from my resource base I am better off. At some point I may sacrifice growth for cow numbers and that is the tipping point.

[grassfarmer]

What an opportunity though farmers_son - 4 weight heifers bringing the same price per pound as 8 weights. Buy or retain the lightweights, rough them over the winter on straight hay then grass them to gain 2lbs a day for a daily grazing charge of around 70 cents. Cost of gain - 35 cents/lb. Surely the light must be coming on somewhere that this is a smarter way to rear cattle?