Mr Butter's letter

[per]

Wow, good thread. Have been busy with harvest and not paying attention. Grassfarmer, good for you for being forward thinking and positive. I agree wholeheartedly that it is time to move on (or get out), age verify these calves, hook up with a value chain, identify our premise (my wife thinks more like Kathy on this one) and quit whining. As for the ageing farm population, not the case here. Lots of competition from young university educated professional businessperson farmers here. And no they haven't lost a sense of community, they are quick to help when someone is in distress.

[grassfarmer]

Thanks Per, I truly do not understand the opposition to this proposal it is way out of whack. Pondering the cost and time issue overnight and came up with some figures for a 100 cow herd.
Extra work to age verify:
1. Tag calf at or near time of birth and write down age beside tag number - 5 minutes per calf(remember this is 5 minutes EXTRA I'm talking which is likely generous given they all have to be tagged at some point anyway)
2. Upload calf number to CCIA database. 1 minute per calf(I can easily do 2 per minute uploading individually as I haven't figured out how to load the files)OR get many of the agencies that will upload them for free to do it for you.
Total time spent 6 minutes per calf - but lets be generous and say it takes you 10 minutes per calf. Total time per year to age verify your calves 100x 10 minutes = 1000 minutes or 16.6 hours. Lets pay ourselves $20 an hour as most producers are happy to earn $10-$15 an hour driving tractors around the field. Extra equipment needed - calving notebook from your local feed store - no charge, plus a freebie pen from same source.
Total cost for the year $333.

Proof that this is a non issue. On the other hand given different growing/harvest conditions if feed grains had gone to $5 a bu this fall how much loss of income would a 100 cow herd have suffered? There are far bigger issues facing us than this - lets get on and tackle them.

[coppertop]

In many areas of Alberta it has become lucrative for farmers to subdivide off parcels of land and sell it to people wanting to live the country lifestyle.
Many farmers who were totally against the subdivision of farm land are no jumping on the bandwagon. They see this as an opportunity to make the dollars from their farm that producing agricultural products isn't doing ! I think the average age of producers in Alberta is 58, although, by the look of the faces in the crowd at some of the livestock meetings I am beginning to think it is older than that.
Too many opportunities in Alberta for resource based industry employment and business ventures to keep 'em' down on the farm !
We do have some multi-generational farms in this area, but they are a rare commodity.

[grassfarmer]

Coppertop, you run a good diversion campaign, rather like ABP. Always keen to introduce new topics to the thread and not reply to the ones others post.

You say "The proposed regulations are onerous and will cost producers time and money, and some of them make no sense at all." I have refuted the cost aspect in my last post and you haven't replied.

You said "All the 'readers', age verification, traceability in the world likely won't stop outbreaks of things like listeriosis which has now claimed 18 lives !!!" Relevance?

You said "I don't even like to see government having to send checks, the check should be the one we receive when we market our livestock and the price we are paid should reflect the quality of the livestock and the age verification if, in fact, it is a bonus to our industry."
I replied "All very well, and I agree with you, but in the big real world it isn't happening like that - what would you change to make it happen that way?"
No reply. Out of ideas like the ABP?

The latest addition:
"In many areas of Alberta it has become lucrative for farmers to subdivide off parcels of land and sell it to people wanting to live the country lifestyle."
Relevance??

[coppertop]

grassfarmer I wasn't aware that I would be required to provide YOU with my reasoning for each and every comment on this site !!!
Each of us have ideas and opinions on numerous topics, you included.
I respect your views on many subjects, and don't feel the need to ask that you substantiate every single word you say.
I assure you that the opinions I have raised with respect to this topic are representative of numerous producers across the province.
I know what I am hearing around my own municipality, and from other producers in the province.
We need more information, and I think most producers would like to be assured that once they do all the work involved in this strategy they will seek financial rewards.

[smcgrath76]

We know the ALMS strategy is going to happen. We are starting to understand a bit about the how it will happen.
The only question I can't get an answer to is how this is going to generate more revenue (and more importantly more profit) into the system. I would appreciate a response from anyone who can give me a good answer to that. In my mind Canada Gold does not represent an answer to the question, because it was happening prior to the announcement and does not require the ALMS program to succeed, even though it shares many similar requirements. Anyone I know who is generating extra revenue is operating in a value chain or a specific niche or hitting specs in a larger market.
How is any of this related to ALMS? The short answer is that it isn't, although I do appreciate the food safety and traceability aspects of the program.

[grassfarmer]

Coppertop, Of course you don't have to provide me with your reasoning. The lack of any coherent argument or suggestions of alternatives will I fear be indicative of the round of fall meetings. A lot of sitting around bitching about age verification, listeriosis, subdivision potential and the price of fish meanwhile the real issues don't get addressed.

[coppertop]

I hope to be coherant at both the Livestock Strategy Meetings and our own ABP Fall Producer meeting.
I look forward to hearing your questions at these functions grassfarmer, who knows, we may agree on everything !!!!!!!
The most important thing is that producers need to attend meetings, ask their questions and become informed on any and all issues facing the industry.

[grassfarmer]

OK Sean I'll attempt to answer your question.
The short answer is that by producing a source verifiable, better quality, product we will be able to access better paying markets and in so doing bring enhanced returns to producers. Before anyone says that the ALMS won't improve any of these things by introducing age verification go back and read the press release. Read and acknowledge the vision of the Minister in establishing a cohesive approach to moving ahead, tying together all the streams of funding so that the Alberta beef ship is sailing in one clear direction with a goal in mind.

Remember this was born out of the desperate situation last winter that was heading for no feedlot industry in Canada and a cow herd big enough to sustain our domestic market only. We absolutely had to do something different and the Minister rightly concluded that as producers, through our existing organisations we were unable to help ourselves.

Canada Gold is the type of thing that could deliver the results to producers - it is a model if you like for the way the Minister sees the industry going if it is to survive. I don't think you can rule it out as an example just because it was started prior to the announcement. As far as I know they haven't started landing the 66,000 head in feedlots for the trial project starting this fall. They are a long way from selling their first pound of beef. This is one area where the Government backing (political and supportive rather than financial) could really make a difference. Imagine the advantage that Ranchers Beef would have had if the Government of the day had been standing squarely behind them willing to assist smooth progress with CFIA, finding new markets through Governmental talks. I don't know whether Canada Gold needs ALMS to succeed - it may well take the mandatory age verification rule to get enough cattle eligible for the program in the next few years. They are targeting a million cattle within a few years.

It's all well and good to say that producers need to be in value chains or niche markets to get ahead and as such it should be left to free enterprise with the smartest operators getting into these schemes and the rest being left dumping calves in the fall sales if they want to. But consider that the Ag Minister has a responsibility and duty to do his best to improve the lot of all producers - this is why he is trying to drag kicking and screaming backward operators into a new way of doing things.

I'm not saying this will bring great prosperity to all beef producers in Alberta but consider the alternatives.
To survive on the present scale we must export a lot of beef from this country. Several of the other export dependant countries already have traceability and forward looking coherent marketing plans. We cannot afford to be left behind. You talk about the cost of the ALMS but what would the cost be of keeping on with what we have been doing? Feeding cattle $5 barley and being limited where we can export to because we don't meet the basic standards of the international marketplace.

As I've said before I think a lot of alleged discontent is being fanned as a distraction by ABP from their own sorry performance because they know they are facing levy deprived extinction sooner rather than later. For all the people that are claimed to be against it I know the Western Stock Growers, Alberta Cattle Feeders, Beef Initiative Group, Feeder Associations of Alberta and the NFU have pledged their broad support of the ALMS. Don't believe the hype that everyone is against it.

[Kathy]

grass farmer, you have obviously not read the AB ANimal Health ACT.

Should your farm be included in a:

1. Surveillance Zone
2 Control Zone
3. or God forbid, a Quarantined Zone.

You will have to do alot more work to comply than register your RFID tags and date of birth. Such as collecting samples for the CFIA from your animals.

Read the act, and tell me why the Government of Alberta is forcing this issue ALMS - a marketing strategy down our throats with an Animal Health ACT that gives them powers to licence or refuse to licence anybody for anything involved in the raising of animals.

[Kathy]

"Comply or get out of the business!"

Yah, that's real positive thinking!

[smcgrath76]

GF, I think you outlined exactly my concern. I am not convinced that the ALMS is going to raise the floor price on cattle, living or dead in the province of AB. It will raise the cost of oding business. As per your previous post, our time estimates are substantially higher than you posted, but even at $330, that's 1/2 a calf for many people.
The only indicator I could think of that would indicate the program was successfully establishing an AB price over time would be the removal of basis from the AB industry. In other words the AB price would become detached from the US price less basis.

[Sawbones]

This is my understanding of Canada Gold and please correct me if I'm wrong. The business model is selling 2,000,000 shares with a max of 100,000 per investor so that theorectically 20 people could own the company. The owners will decide on the dividends. The cow calf person writes a cheque for $6.50 per head for the right to particpate without knowing where the cattle will be fed,cost of feeding, place of slaughter, cost of slaughter or even the end purchaser of the product. There are extra cost as far as audits and veterinary involvement. You've said this is not just a supply contract but at present, I don't have the faith to sign up my calves without the other pieces of the puzzle being in place. They need a long term contract with a packer with fixed costs and a guaranteed market..then that makes a value chain. At the present time, it's just talk

[coppertop]

The livestock strategy will drive producers out of the industry, and until it is a Canada Wide initiative it makes no sense at all to have it mandatory. Alberta producers will up front all the cost and see no more return for their product than those in other jurisidictions.
I am beginning to think that unless we agree with Grassfarmer we are all BACKWARD thinking !!!

I am attending the upcoming producer organized meeting on Wednesday evening with an open mind, prepared to listen to ABP, Alberta Agriculture and producers, many of whom will have forgot more about raising beef than any bureaucrat in the province !!!

[grassfarmer]

Sean, You are not convinced that the ALMS is going to raise the floor price on cattle, living or dead in the province of AB....the only indicator you could think of that would indicate the program was successfully establishing an AB price over time would be the removal of basis from the AB industry. In other words the AB price would become detached from the US price less basis.
Fair enough - i'm not certain it will work ultimately either BUT what other options do we have? we must try and achieve the aims you state above if a cattle industry is to survive in this Province. This proposal offers the best opportunities of achieving the aims that you stated. If you or anyone else has better ideas please bring them on - but the status quo is not an option.

Sawbones, I think the fears you have as a cow/calf producer with Canada Gold may be based on the misunderstanding that it has to involve retained ownership - it doesn't. I have the same fears as you about retained ownership - i've looked at it a few times but always backed away as I felt that I was taking all the risk whereas it was clear the feedlot couldn't fail to make money company. With Canada Gold the cow/calf producer can get certified by the program and offer their calves for sale to participating feedlots or backgrounders at special sales to be arranged or privately. By paying the $6.50 fee producers will get carcase data back on their calves as well as feedlot performance data even if they sell them at weaned calf stage, to me that alone is worth more than $6.50 I see this as an opportunity to access a premium market with my calves as people like Rick Paskal are behind this project and want certified cattle in their lots this winter. I think it is excellent that cow/calf, feedlots and even packers have been working together on this program - it shows a new spirit of co-operation which is much needed.
Now like the age verification there are no guarantees how much the premium may be (or if there is one at this stage)but that is the nature of developing new business or new markets. If everyone waits for the day that a regulated, guaranteed premium is in place before they start to produce the calf the program requires that's surely a more socialist system, like waiting on welfare, that Albertans are supposed to hate?

Coppertop, "The livestock strategy will drive producers out of the industry..." The status quo is currently driving people out of the industry, so what would your solution be??
The fact that it isn't Canada wide isn't Alberta's fault - take that up with the Feds - you can't blame our Ag minister for trying to help producers in his province.