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    #11
    Sean I've read all the stories about hybrid bulls that
    retain nearly 85% of potential hybrid vigour - I just
    question the science. I bet when they figured out the
    theoretic maximum of 100% they didn't cross two
    unrelated, tightly bred lines exhibiting a fair bit of
    inbred regression. If they had I suspect they may have
    had 130% compared to your 85%.

    Gary I didn't appreciate your program had a terminal
    and maternal strain - that makes sense. Interesting
    that you would have 50% continental in the maternal
    strain but predominantly Angus in the terminal strain.
    That's contra-logical to me but you certainly were
    ahead of your time implementing this 24 years ago.
    The Angus breed as a whole has definitely moved in
    that terminal direction in this timespan.
    I guess everyone has their own definition of condition
    but we aim to grow bulls at 2.2lbs/day until they
    reach maturity and they are never thin. They might
    grow faster in summer and slower in winter but they
    are never thin.
    I would not use a bull that was grown to yearling size
    at 3lbs a day. If you start testing them at 600lbs?
    grow them at 3lbs/day for 200 to get a yearling
    weight of 1200lbs I feel you get a body weight of
    animal that has too much weight of flesh in relation
    to muscle - particularly the muscles that he uses as a
    bull. To be able to cover ground, breed cows and
    fight other bulls in a multi-sire situation you are
    handicapping him akin to turning a feedlot steer out
    with mature bulls.
    You are right that many buyers don't choose less fed
    bulls but I see that as an education opportunity.
    Anyone that comes here and says my bulls aren't big/
    heavy enough for their age gets asked what size their
    heifer replacements are. Most don't have their
    yearling heifers weighing 12-1500lbs and two year
    olds weighing a ton because it would cost them too
    much and would be over developing them. So why do
    they expect the bulls to be raised this way? The
    resulting wastage this causes is a huge cost to the
    commercial cattle producer but thus far most are
    swayed by the "bigger is better" mentality.

    Comment


      #12
      The biggest reason for using Angus as terminal is that many of our buyers also participate in the value added programs such as Prairie Angus or Spring Creek and although we just started this line 10 years ago, we find there are plenty of high performing Angus cattle. I can't claim the credit for using the crosses for the maternal as that was initiated in the late 70's both at Clay Center Nebraska with what is now called Stabilizer cattle and the Beefbooster model that was developed in southern Alberta by some very forward thinking ranchers

      Comment


        #13
        That's when I start to worry about breeding programs
        - when marketing supersedes breeding. This whole
        "Angus beef" deal has been great marketing but it's
        been bad for the cattle breeds in my opinion. With
        the requirement being only for black hided cattle in
        many programs this has diluted the genetic
        consistency to the point the end product can only be
        generic beef.
        Is there a website for the ABC program? I confess I've
        never heard of it although I'm familiar with the Clay
        centre work as well as Beefbooster and their spinoff
        CL super crosses.

        Here are links to a couple of images which I hope will
        come through for people.
        http://plantandsoil.unl.edu/Image/siteImages/B73Mo
        17,hybridPlantsLG.gif
        This one shows corn plants with the two rows on the
        left being the inbred parent stock lines and the one
        on the right being a hybrid created by crossing the
        two parents.
        http://plantandsoil.unl.edu/Image/siteImages/B73Mo
        17,hybridEarsLG.gif
        This second image shows the cobs off the same
        plants with the hybrid in the middle this time. I think
        these demonstrate well how the best hybrids are
        created in plant breeding. Yet in the cattle world most
        either breed unrelated parent stock to each other or
        they use hybrids as breeding stock. Why does nobody
        follow the corn model and maximize hybrid vigor for
        the commercial producer producing the feeder
        calves/fat cattle?

        Comment


          #14
          I guess the links don't work - try going to:

          http://plantandsoil.unl.edu/pages/printinformationm
          odule.php?idinformationmodule=1075412493

          scroll down until you come to pictures 10a and 10b.

          Comment


            #15
            Thanks for the comments...The best crosses for maintaining hybrid vigor yet control over the seedstock are phenotypically similar yet genetically diverse and those are hard to find within purebred programs. EPD's are great for single trait selection but poor at identifying optimum for a large number of traits.

            Comment


              #16
              You'll have to explain this to me Gary I'm not
              following:
              "The best crosses for maintaining hybrid vigor yet
              control over the seedstock are phenotypically similar
              yet genetically diverse and those are hard to find
              within purebred programs."

              I assume you mean as an example that you would
              want to start with a Hereford and an Angus that are
              phenotypically similar? Surely they would
              automatically be genetically diverse by the fact they
              are two unrelated breeds? I also don't understand
              what the "control over the seed stock" you speak of
              is?

              Comment


                #17
                One of my concerns about buying off the shelf bulls is that you often find bith wt, udder, fertiltiy and feet problems in the nest generation. Many purebred operations using EPD's are only looking for single trait selection

                Comment


                  #18
                  Gary E what is off the shelf

                  Comment

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