Who will pay?

[rsomer]

Cowman: The federal government provides transfer payments to Quebec even though it is a resource rich province. The Quebec provincial government takes some of this money and supports the agriculture industry in the province very well, I believe more than any other province although Alberta's farmers have received a lot of support from its government lately. As well the federal government is sensitive to the Quebec issue when developing ag programs for the rest of the country. Just so there is no bad mouthing about Quebec farmers, it was a farmer in Quebec who sent the load of hay we got last summer from Hay West. If another province wanted to support their industry to the same extent as Quebec I am sure those farmers would take the money too.

Your comments about South America and globalization are very insightful, right on. As farmers we believe we would be better off if government was out of the market place allowing us to operate in a "free market" but it is not so. Primary agriculture operates in a nearly pure competitive environment which might sound good but what that really means is that competition inevitably is driving all the profit out of the industry. Governments tend to provide what competitive advantage is available to agriculture in this country and all countries in the developed world. Without government support from the taxpayers in one form or another, all us farmers would not much better off than peasants in our own country, as you pointed out. Even in South America, for example Brazil, the governments supports agriculture but the nature of that support might be changing.

For some insight into government taxpayer support of Canada’s ag industry from another country's viewpoint see:
http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/canada/policy.htm

also the world situation at: http://www.ers.usda.gov/briefing/wto/

[ivbinconned]

From 1991 to 1999, there was a 78%reduction in direct federal expenditures in support of the agri-food sector in sask. and a 69% reduction for Alberta.In the same time period there was only a 27% reduction in Quebec. I am NOT bad mouthing the Quebec farmer but I do "bad mouth" a system that bleeds money from Alberta to "lavishly" support farms in another province. If Alberta farmers don't mind this atleast you would think they would rise up and insist that the money goes to there neighboring province where there grandpa and uncles farm.
Now that, is just the federal expenditures! What about the "lavish" support of Alberta dollars the Quebec farmer gets through there provincial goverment via federal transfers...hush,hush...were not suposed to know. While I have seen my saskatchewan assets drop in value 50% in the last 10 to 15 years, in Quebec the high level of Quebec goverment support is a major reason why average net worth of grain and oil seed producers increased 51.3% compared to 12.7 per cent in Ontario from 93 to 97; during the same period, average assets in Quebec increased by 53.5 per cent compared to 15.8% in Ontario.
When total crop receipts for Quebec were just $1.3 billion as compared to Ontarios $3.1 billion the Quebec Ag ministry spent $527 million while Ontario's spent just $372 million! Neat what you can do as a "have not" province while Alberta sleeps.
I have said it before in these threads, what does a pick pocketer do? He makes you look the other way! So we are told to look and blame the U.S. and Europe, while with in our own country the 21 year old Quebec ASRA programs (indirectly funded with ALBERTA money)heaps impressive benifits on, for example, a 780 acre corn grower over a 9 year period ending in 99 amounted to $580,000, or an average of $64,445 per year with a 99 provision of $99,480! Not bad eh!
This program now inludes all ag production and guess what, it is acreage based, cost of production based, and also has an interesting aspect to it in that the benifits are based on %90 of a skilled workers wages in Quebec, ie. nurse, teacher, goverment employees, etc.
Could this be why the average age of farmers in Quebec is much much lower than say Saskatchewan.
Could it be that a net payout in 1999 of $120.00 per acre of barley to a Quebec farmer is why he could afford to send us that load of hay that the Canadian Alliance got so excited about and we where all supposed to feel so warm and fuzzy about. Give me a break!

[rusty1]

My Rant - We really blue it when the Ontario Ag. Minister wanted to "regionalize the beef industry", we should have jumped at the opportuinity of a life time.
I'd still like someone to tell me how shooting 650,000 normally slaughtered culls would reduce the population. It's the pretty little heifers comming into the system that keep us going that would need to be stopped.

[Bruce14]

Rusty1 said "We really blue it when the Ontario Ag. Minister wanted to "regionalize the beef industry", we should have jumped at the opportuinity of a life time."

One thing western Canada does not have is enough consumers for what we produce. What we need is less restrictions into large markets not more.

I don't think Helen Johns is feeling so cocky about her gov't at the moment. With the Aylmer Meat fiasco now gaining headlines the Ontario gov't had better do the right thing and do a proper inquiry. If Butch Clare is guilty of what has been alleged, an example should be set with the stiffest penalties possible.

[cowman]

Rusty 1: Please elaborate on your thoughts about the regionalization thing...I don't quite get how that was a good idea. Probably a good idea for Ontario and Quebec farmers, maybe not so good for the eastern consumer! Pretty well a disaster for feedlot alley right now! Hey maybe we could regionalize our oil and gas money!
Now it sounds to me like Quebec has got some good ideas! Maybe we should get on the bandwagon and ask our provincial governments for the same kind of deal? Of course then the question comes up of who will pay? I suspect Ralph Klein and Ernie Eaves might balk at ponying up some more cash!

[rsomer]

ivbinconned: Agriculture in Quebec has succeeded in convincing the taxpayer that there are benefits in supporting their industry. We should figure out how Quebec did it and learn from that.

You mentioned Saskatchewan. I think back to 1988 when Ray Hnatyshyn and a handful of other Tory cabinet ministers were defeated because of opposition to the government's free trade deal with the United States. In 1995, seven years later the WGTA was gone. Coincidence? Maybe not. Saskatchewan was getting the lions share of the multi million dollar WGTA and other federal ag support yet in 1988 voted against incumbent candidates to voice opposition on free trade.

Getting back to Rutherford who said why should he as a taxpayer, be responsible for bailing out cattlemen. It seems like agriculture needs to get the message to two important groups, the taxpayer and government. I think government already knows the importance of bailing out the cattle industry yet will want to see two types of benefits. One benefit is a strengthened industry, expanded tax base, overall growth of the economy. The second benefit is support for their party when they need votes in the next election.

As for the free hay from Quebec, those people could have thumbed their noses at western cattlemen but chose to help. I have often wondered if the shoe were on the other foot would we have done the same for them. My son spoke to the fellow who sent Hay West the hay we received (I can’t speak French) and he didn’t grow barley. He was a dairy farmer and grew corn and hay. I am beginning to wonder why anyone, taxpayer or otherwise should help cattle producers. It seems as if we are an ungrateful bunch.

[rusty1]

Bruce14:About markets. The market is the world, and if we have a product to sell (which we do) I'm not worried about the east. We can find our own markets all we need is some cowboy/salesmen and Rick Paskal and some of his group are fully capable of that, that they demostrated. We are all aware of the saying that "necessity is the mother of invention". I truly believe we could sell our own produce better than the packers can.
Cowman: When it comes to regionalization Yes to all of the above. Oil and gas lumber and all, just draw the line between Kenora nd Winnepeg. I'm not for any govt. supportm, I'm for no govt. intervention. Let them just creat a climate with the right rules and we'll take care of our own lives. Except ofcource in the current situation. Once life gets back to normal and I think the world think tank on BSE will straighten out those rules.
ivbinconned: WOW where do you get all that information. I am even more convince that separation it is time for separation. If your numbers are true and I don't any reason to think other wise then we have all beem conned. The problem seems to be we like it.

[ivbinconned]

Rsomer-How does Quebec Ag interests do it you asked? Influence there prov. and Fed. government?? First of all, unlike the West where divide and conquer has been the tactic for decades we have 24 plus different farm groups and interest,maybe more. In Quebec...one. And it has been clearly understood that if one sector benifits from government they all do. They negotiate united and never have a plan B, or fall back position. They even brag "you english don't know how to negotiate".
Then of course there is the all to familiar threat (phoney I believe) of separation which has resulted in the entrenchment of the federal transfer system (interprovincial socialism)in our constitution which we can thank our brilliant Western premiers of the day for.
So today not only do the feds cost share in that provinces programs which are far more costly than Ontario's even though Quebec has 25,000 less farmers. They also hand Alberta cash directly to the Quebec government which flows through to there farms!
The result today is this. Net payout's per acre in Quebec for the years 98, 99, 2000 for corn were...$117.03; 122.27; 149.23!
For Soy...same years...$28.09; $48.24; $80.80!
For Wheat...$92.81; $81.70; $100.49!!
Average New Investment per farm in Quebec as compared to Ontario (sorry I dont't have figures for Alberta) for the years 93, 95, 97 are as follows; Quebec $28,323; $43,259; $45804.
Ontario $18,053; $25,207; $30,334
Average New Investment on grain and oilseed farms 50% higher in Quebec than Ontario in 97 speaks volumes about producer perceptions of future profitability.
So you asked, what would we do if the shoe was on the other foot...well we've bin connned...they got all our shoes.
Six BILLION a year.

[carebear300]

Great discussion!!!!!!!! will have to think up a couple of points to add tomorrow. I am combining and am tiring of looking at that straight cut reel going round and round all day and half the night.

[cowman]

Just one little thing. The hay west deal. That was a genuine gesture from eastern farmers that was a sincere sign of compassion. It probably did more for national unity than all the government BS has ever done! Sure it was sort of a silly thing that made no real sense but it was the thought that counts!
I didn't get any hay or apply for any but I sure felt good that the eastern farmer gave a rip about us even though those dogs in Ottawa didn't! I didn't see a lot of hay donated from southern Alta. where they had extra good crops? In fact a lot of them got stuck holding their high priced feed! I guess they should realize that the worm always turns and their turn may be next year!

[ValueChainFX]

I guess when it comes down to it, there are producers and there is government. The real direct help to the primary producer seems to come from the primary producer. When the government figures out their fancy programs they seem to only go to "Business" outside of the primary producer ie. academics - as in business incubators, packers and feedlots!

Guess if the primary producer is looking for programs to assist them when "The real need is there"! We will have to put them in place ourselves.

[ivbinconned]

Cowman; Please don't take me wrong. The hay west event was a neat demonstation of charity from person to person, farmer to farmer, and is the only way it should be done. However we can not let such events pull our noses up so close to the canvas that we can not see the hole picture. This the effect that happens when the media gives us the story through there lens.
When the redistribution of Alberta's wealth ( which was not gained because of government...BUT inspite of goverment) is doled out to another province in the way I spelled it out ($120.00 per acre!!). We should be out raged. This is not charity, this is highway robbery! This is why they always tell us to blame the U.S. and Europe and everybody else! Make you look the other way.
This is what happens when there is a transfer of wealth from government to government instead of person to person...with the constitutionaly entrenched equalization system today a family in Alberta with an income of $30,000 to $40,000 contribute about $3,150; a Newfoundland family with income of more than $100,000.00 gets a benifit of $1200.00!!
This is taking from the truck diver in Alberta and giving to the Doctor in the East.
This is taking from the the guy that fixes your car in a Alberta and giving it to a lawyer in P.E.I.
Maybe Albertans think this is cool...but then again do they really know the extent of this scam?
Do they have the courage to do something about it??

[cowman]

Well I don't think they can do much about it as King Ralph seems to be all for it and I doubt he'll be leaving anytime soon. And who else do we have to vote for? I doubt you could get a liberal or an NDP elected here if you passed out free whiskey!
Every once in awhile we get some radical type party that looks good until they say some outrageous thing that turns everyone off! Any separist parties always end up sounding like a bunch of Nazi rednecks!
In reality Alberta probably has one of the worst governments in Canada! Not too hard to look good when you can hardly find a place for all the money rolling in from the oil and gas! I bet Alberta wastes more money than a lot of provinces spend!
The whole idea of the "Alberta Advantage" is really a joke! You know cheaper and smaller government! The only advantage is the oil and gas and their wild spending ways! Sort of like having a crew of drunken sailors in town for the weekend!

[rsomer]

Governments in Canada are charged with more than the responsibility of making laws and defending the country. Most accept the need for government to address regional and individual inequities that exist throughout the country. Some web sites that discuss how the federal and provinces address this need are:

Federal Transfers to Provinces and Territories
http://www.fin.gc.ca/activty/fedprov-e.html

Equalization Program
http://www.fin.gc.ca/FEDPROV/eqpe.html

The Equalization Program
http://www.fin.gc.ca/transfers/transfers_eq_e.html

Equalization payments are an important part of nation building. We could not have a unified country with huge disparities in prosperity of either governments or people. I would argue the country is stronger as a result. Equalization payments are an important part of nation building. Equalization money is provided unconditionally, provincial governments can spend it according to their own priorities. Quebec and all the provinces in Canada except Alberta and Ontario receive equalization payments. If Quebec chooses to support agriculture when that money could have supported health care, education, transportation is a policy decision of that provincial government.

No doubt there are people in the city that question money going to beef producers as ivbinconned questions equalization payments going to Quebec. I haven’t noticed where ivbinconned has raised any issue with equalization money going to Saskatchewan however.

I think Alberta is fortunate to be able to contribute to the overall economy of the country. Our non renewable energy resources will not last forever. At some point in the not too distant future Alberta may find its energy resources depleted and will be on the receiving side of the equalization payments. Canada is a good investment.

For that matter the cattle industry is a good investment during this time of crisis. I think Rutherford and people like him realize that and will support the industry with taxpayer dollars as long as sufficient taxpayer dollars are there for issues that ring closer to home such as education and health care.

[Bruce14]

Slow at getting out of the house this a.m. We had 6/10 of rain last night and a tremendous light show. A nice break off the combine.

While chewing on the barley dust I've been thinking of some of the posts here re: education and its importance. No doubt it is up there (probably 6th on my list of necessities).

The one problem I have is the attitude in some circles of educators. We have unions pushing for strikes for whatever reasons (its never about wages). Its the picky things that bug me, noon hour supervision, extracuricular activities, stress, etc.

I guess when cattle producers need some help we have to gain public support and look to the gov't for help. Other occupations just threaten to go on strike and they get most of what they demand.

This appplies to most of society especially in good 'ol Sk. Between grain handlers, elevator workers, dock workers, postal employees, healthcare providers, teachers, gov't workers and everyone else that affects our day to day activities it is little wonder that a lot of folks on the farm feel more than a little jaded when someone questions validity or importance of the beef industry in Canada.

Sounds like more rain in the forecast and I hope it is widespread to get us all in better shape for next year.