Who will pay?

[ivbinconned]

Rsomer; This country was being built very well BEFORE 1982 and the new constitution that entrenched this massive welfare scheme. I find it hard to believe that any one would argue that welfare helps bulid anything.Dependencey is the result!
Please explain how we have become more "unified" because of equalization?
How has it made us "stronger"?? Are you referring to our dollar, our military, or our moral and honorable public policies?
Are you referring to our current impact on world events?
As for your comment that some day Alberta may be on the recieving end...with perpetual Liberal government's in Ottawa... Alberta may well be eligable, but dream on if you think you will collect.
As for Saskatchewan and the equalization issue. The average family in Saskachawan is contributing $2700.00 while in New Brunswick the average family recieves $1700.00.
Likewise the average gain in Newfoundland is almost $7000.00 while an Alberta family pays out more that $6000.00!
You seem to have missed my point.
How could you defend a system that has a family in Newfoundland with an income with 100,000.00 per year recieving benifits from a family in your province (lets say a member of your or my family) with an income of $30,000.00??

[ValueChainFX]

I think we have all fallen into this complex issue of Government, nation building and inputs into the system! Over all Canada is a wonderful place to live! I personally believe that our governments, both Federal and Provincial have some restructuring to do! We can all see the inequities in our government; however, when we see them most is when something has ended up on our own front door.

As an industry, we best figure out how we can help ourselves and work in whatever system we have. Don't count on government support, or support from anywhere else but our own industry! If we can’t make something work than we better set to work in making a change through the channels provided and we all know this could take years.

At the end of the day we all pay one way or the other, so if we are going to pay, maybe we should work that into our costs and figure out how to make our income with those costs incorporated. If we can’t make our industry pay, than we best ask ourselves if we want to be in the business or not!

Sounds straight forward but as we all know it isn't. But until we organize as a group we will be looking for the hind spigot, as that's where we will be getting our milk (and not for free I'm sure)!

[rsomer]

ivbinconnd: The equalization program has been in existence since 1957, not 1982 but is entrenched in the constitution as you say. My information indicates that on a per capita basis Saskatchewan receives $321 equalization payments while New Brunswick received $1552 in 2002-2003. Newfoundland received $1915 per capita. Your numbers appear to be erroneous. The majority of families in Saskatchewan and these other provinces would not be able to pay the level of taxation needed to support basic public services such as health care and education, much less offer assistance to their beef industry in times of crisis.

Here is my point. On my farm, I do subsidize unprofitable enterprises with other profits. Is that welfare or is it an investment. I won’t cut off my arm to save my leg. I need the whole farm to make a go of it in the long term. The expectation is that even the unprofitable parts of the whole are still making an important contribution to the overall organization in the short term with the expectation that they will be making a greater contribution in the future. Why should taxpayers contribute money to the beef industry in this time of crisis? For the same reason. For Canada to loose its beef industry would be like loosing an arm of the economy. The country would be handicapped as a result.

If we are to ask the taxpayer to see the value of an investment in the beef industry from a cow calf producers point of view, perhaps it is not too much of a stretch to see the value of an investment in a nation from the point of view of someone in Newfoundland or New Brunswick or Saskatchewan. I believe one can think of both investments as building a stronger country.

[ivbinconned]

rsomer; My figures come from a 1998 report called "Where The Money Goes: The Distribution of Taxes and Benifits In Canada, written by Finn Poschmann with the C.D.Howe Institute.
And also from a 1999 report "Simply Sharing: An Interprovincial Equalization Scheme for Canada by Paul Boothe and Derek Hermanutz.
Those are the figures to that year.
If you believe that this sociaist scheme is making our country "stronger" (your word) then I ask you again, show us where? What is the evidence.
Saskatchewan proves my point that this welfare does not work as you say. In the late 80s we gained some, and became net contributers in to the fedeal coffers but then re-elected the N.D.P. and have slid right back into a dependent state. Maybe it is time we faced reality!
I would always defend your right to stroke a cheque and give generously to any one you wish but you seem to have again missed my point.The government can't do it for you in a fair and equatable manner. By trusting them to do so has allowed them to rob you blind!
Had you heard about the lavish farm subsidies in Quebec I mentioned above from any western sourse?? Do you feel like a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed alot of...
My family in Alberta making 30 to 40,000 a year is supporting a family making a 100,000.00 a year in the east?
This is insane.
This does NOT make for a strong country. You cannot build someone up by pulling someone else down.
As these men state in there report, "transfer schemes that redistribute income among governments can WORSEN its distribution among individuals"

[rsomer]

To conclude my comments. Yes I was well aware of the lavish farm subsidies in Quebec. I take it you believe there should be no taxpayer support of the beef industry in this time of crisis as "the government can't do it for you in a fair and equatable manner". How do you see the industry surviving in the next year without taxpayer support? What would have become of the feeding industry since May 20? As the topic heading says, who will pay? Are you concerned about significantly increased American ownership of what Canadian cattle industry remains? I guess I just assumed it was a given that the cattle industry needed help at this time.

[kato]

How's this for a have not province? Today Manitoba announced the money is all gone for the cattle producers. Since we have no slaughter capacity, the provincial government funnelled the slaughter compensation program money into one that helped cover feed costs for fat cattle stranded in feedlots. They tooted their own horn loud and strong over the help they were giving us as well. As well as re-naming the compensation program money, they brought out low-interest loans, so we could all get a little deeper in debt. That's lots of help.

Well, today the money ran out, so as of now, there is no help whatsoever for Manitoba cattle producers. It's all over. When asked in the Legislature, what help would be coming, the response was...It's the Federal Government's responsibility. This is what they always say, and I for one am getting sick of hearing it.

The only saving grace is that prices at the auction, so far, aren't as bad as we thought they might be. So Far. Problem is, that doesn't help with the hole we got in over the summer. I think government policy in this country is based on the theory of distract, delay, and do nothing, and maybe they will go away.

[melvill]

Got some green seed in canola in southern Alberta, too. Producers think that the plants dried down so quickly after swathing that plant physiological activity stopped before the green disappeared.

[Bruce14]

rsomer after reading this last post I had to go back and reread your second one (the tenth from the top). It appears to me you have come full circle in your arguement.

Having said that, the situation is serious and there are no easy answers. Unless the federal gov't wakes up to the situation agriculture is facing in Canada the family farm as we know it is certainly looking at a bleak future. Not many will continue to hold off farm jobs just to sink their wages back into a bottomless pit.

Will the people in power and taxpayers look back on this time and say "You know I guess we really should have listened and done something" or will our children be managing this land and the cattle for Cargill, IBP, Monsanto or whatever corporation?

[jensend]

Bruce14 - we are already managing this land for grain companies, banks, fertilizer and chemical companies. There is a total lack of respect for the producer and his investment. A small (very) example: 3 weeks ago I contract some canola and hit the top of the market. Delivery within 15 days - well maybe if they have space and feel like it or I could cancel the contract and take a worse basis and a lower Winnipeg price. I'm bound; they're not. After rain last night they want to deliver fertilizer and I say leave it for a day to let the yard dry up but two Super Bee's roll in at 2. It works out because the wind had dried things up but no notice or checking with us. I'm sick of the corporate attitude that I have made this investment for them to milk. Hopefully I will last long enough to see more than a few of these corporate geniuses topple over into their own dung. That's my rant.

[carebear300]

You don't even have to wonder in this country that the government and society that we live in would ever have a second thought over losing a few more of those nuisance type farmers. I mean if you don't have five hundred cows or seed ten thousand acres you were really just inefficent operators that were just clogging up the system. If I sound cynical and tee offed it is because I am fed up with all the rhetoric that all politicians of all stripes dish out to the media for the population to gobble up. The truth is that they don't give a dam one way or the other and don't intend to help farmers. Now big agri businesses that is something important and they make bigger political contributions so we have to make sure that they survive. The banks have record profits but they will likely need help as well because they are taking a bath on some of their ag accounts, through no fault of the farmers but because of international rulings and government interference. Well am glad I got that off my chest but will not apologize to any one for getting this worked up, knowing full well that nothing I say or do will make one bit of difference to the powers that be down east in the federal government.

[Bruce14]

Jensend and carebear RANT ON! Sometimes it feels better yelling into the wind than not yelling at all.

Actually jensend we are not managing for the corporations. It may be better if we were as then at least they would be assuming the risk instead of us. At least that's my take.

[cowman]

Kato: So what happens to the cow guy in Manitoba? Did Manitoba sign on to Van Cliefs Ag scheme, where we're all going to be living the life of Riley? They claim big bucks are coming down the pipes if you guys sign up! For who I'm not sure? Maybe for the guys administrating it? I shouldn't speculate because I really haven't even read the info the government sent me!
Do you think your NDP government is handling this better than the last guy would have? It seems to me he was pretty close with the old pocketbook too?

[rsomer]

Bruce14: you said "It appears to me you have come full circle in your arguement."

In my earlier post I was trying to show the other side of the issue, from a school teachers viewpoint. How we need to communicate to the urban taxpayer in way that they can relate to, which might be different than how a cattle producer would relate to the same message. I was at a meeting last night with Sheila Copps, she pointed out that 50% of Canadians live in 8 major cities. She also pointed out that there has been 7 years of uninterrupted growth in the economy and a lot of Canadians are doing very well. This might explain the generosity that government has been shown our industry to date. I think back some years when the economy was in recession and government was into budget cuts. The cattle industry might not have received what help it has if this crisis has happened at that time. Since my wife is both a teacher and lives on the farm she does see the need for help for the beef industry but at the same time wishes there was more money for education.

In the post you referred to I also mentioned how successful the oil industry has been in communicating its message to the taxpayer. I suggested that a possible reason for this was when oil prices were down jobs were lost and when drilling activity is down, energy prices are seen to rise. I have since thought there is another reason. A lot of people own shares in oil companies and their retirement depends on the oil companies showing a profit. It is easier to convince the taxpayer of the importance of your industry if their pocketbook is impacted as well as yours.

[rsomer]

kato: you said "they brought out low-interest loans, so we could all get a little deeper in debt."

Our national beef organization, the Canadian Cattleman’s Association (CCA) is not supporting direct deficiency payments to the cow calf producers, only to the feedlots which held cattle to be fattened as of May 20. The CCA policy for the rest of us is interest free cash advances with the rest of the support to the primary producer to be funneled through CAISP.

The CCA is describing their policy as a four pronged approach but really it is a two pronged approach, one approach for feedlots and another approach for the cow calf producer. CAISP will support those cow calf producers who were fortunate to have built up a healthy reference margin. But I shouldn’t have to qualify for support in this crisis by having shown a profit in three of the past five years, the feedlots didn't have to. Many cow calf producers hard hit by repeated droughts have no reference margin left and will receive no support from CAISP. It is not fair that the feedlots received unconditional grants while cow calf producers receive interest free loans that have to be paid back and CAISP if your lucky. It appears that on this issue government is only following the advice of the CCA who are speaking on our behalf. I am disappointed that all sectors of the industry are not being treated equally.

[Bruce14]

rsomer, did you ask Sheila any of the tough questions? Did you ask what her gov'ts plan was to help open the U.S. border to Canadian Beef or was she just in town to sell gay marraiges, maryjane legislation or gun control? Did you ask her why her gov't was using the BSE crisis to force provinces to sign on to the APF?

You mention she said Canada has enjoyed 7 years of uninterrupted growth. Did you ask her if that was all of Canada or was it central Canada where the votes are and her particular riding.

Yea I believe 50% of Canadians live in 8 major cities. What's her point? 80% of Canadians also live within an hour of the TransCanada corridor. We all know when we flip the T.V. on election night that event though the polls just closed Peter Mansbridge always says "For those of you just joining us from Manitoba west we can tell you the .........'s will be forming the next gov't".

Now the point I don't understand "This might explain the generosity that government has been shown our industry to date." Were they passing out some "WEED" at this meeting with Sheila. The BSE crisis has barely been noticed by the Liberal gov't. Where has Sheila's fearless mentor J.C Superstar been through all of this?

Rsomer I hope you didn't let Miz.
Copps off too easy while she was busy patting herself on the back.