30 months or 23 months

[topper]

The news out there today doesn't sound very good. From what I hear BSE has been found in a 23 month old cow in Japan. IF this is true I presume it throws the old rules out the window. The americans will use this for an excuse to keep live cattle out and maybe even rethink the partial border opening that is in place now. I was just wondering if anybody else has heard anything on this subject and wondered if anybody has an opinion on it.

[15444]

I can only imagine that R-Calf will be screaming to shut the borders to Canadian beef permanently! Watch the American prices take off again.

[rsomer]

International BSE prevention standards are determined by the International Office of Epizootics (OIE), an animal health standard setting organization of 164 member nations, including the United States. The OIE has determined that bovine animals under 30 months of age are low risk for BSE. Animals under 30 months of age have occasionally tested positive for BSE before but the occurences are rare.

[topper]

thanks for the info rsomer, I was unaware that any animals under the 30 months had ever tested positive for BSE. I still think the US will try to use this case as an excuse to keep the border closed. I think that this is one more reason why Canada should test all beef butchered in Canada for BSE. It seems like a no brainer, if they did this no body in the world would hesitate to buy canadian beef. If our government had half a brain they would immediately start to expand our slaughter facilities and go to 100% testing. After all the customer is always right, at least that's the way I understand it.

[cowman]

For whatever reason our government and our cattle organizations have decided full testing is not going to happen. Probably has something to do with the record profits the packing and retail industry are experiencing right now.
Apparently this young animal in Japan has a different strain of BSE so maybe we'll be seeing a lot more of it.
It seems rather strange that with the almost total collapse of the cow market prices have not fallen a lot more than they have. A big Mac never went down and the price of a steak or a roast beef dinner sure hasn't dropped in the restaurants. Someone is making one hell of a lot of money out of this whole farce!
And lets not forget that if we ever went to testing everything then it would be necessary to have all imported meat tested. I can just imagine how happy that would make the Yanks, Australians etc.? Or how about the Deli owners in Montreal and Toronto? No more kangaroo meat? No more roadkill?

[ValueChainFX]

cowman you are right. As a producer group we have little faith in the government (provincial or federal) for any "REAL" help with primary producer challenges. As far as the associations, commissions or related type groups they seem to be happy as a second position at the feed bin!

In saying this, we still have to believe that some of these people think they are trying to do good. In fact in some ways they have done good. But when it comes to "Good Management Practices" and working with the producers to solve some of the issues, they fall so far short it has gone beyond shameful.

Although we will continue to wade through the reams of red tape and BS, our position remains the same. A producer solution will come from producers. We have found local governments (County and municipal) to be open and receptive in building something to assist sustainable agriculture and rural development.

I'm glad to see some of the markets opening up, it would be nice to see a more permanent solution for producers. If the government continues to work at cross purposes to a more permanent solution I suppose our next step would be to go public (in a positive way) with a more direct approach and some of the facts on the money spent in agriculture.

[rsomer]

"A producer solution will come from producers" If you are suggesting producers testing on their own for BSE in order that a small group or value chain could export beef to Japan, I would suggest this is not only a bad thing but should never be allowed to happen.

Why, because the more we test, the more likely we will find another positive. We find another positive we loose our access to the rest of the North American market for good. NAFTA is our market for beef. We think we got troubles now, it could be worse.

Until the OIE develops a more rational approach to those exporting countries that test for BSE and actually find a positive no one is going to be testing any more than is necessary. And after Canada's experience, I would think no beef exporting country, Canada or the U.S. included, is going to naively admit they found another BSE positive until the OIE rules are straighted out. Japan did, but they don't export. Japan is using BSE testing as a means of restricting imports of beef into their country to support their domestic industry. Plus Japan will never buy our beef again, whether we test every animal or not.

[topper]

rsomer: I can see your logic on testing. If we went to a 100% test of cattle over 30 months old and found a few more cases of BSE, under OIE rules our borders would be shut down again for the younger animals. So the only way we could ever go to a 100% test would be to kill 100% percent at home which is not possible. This then leads we to ask the question, how can we change the OIE rules and is anybody in this country working on that angle right now?

[Bruce14]

Yes Canada, Mexico, U.S, Australia and New Zealand are pressuring the OIE to revamp their recommendations on BSE depending on # of cases found in a country.

[ALICIA]

Lets put pressure on to get started on testing every thing. Then we can put a stop on all the beef being inported because then it will not meet our high standards in having the safest beef in the world.
That I believe is the real reason the goverment will not test every thing

[cowman]

These so-called OIE rules are a little bizarre. Not about food safety at all. I mean if the animal is tested there can be no question about its safety, right? So the only really safe meat is tested meat.
If we went to a 100% test we still couldn't sell our meat? While the US, Australia, New Zealand could continue to sell their untested product? This goes beyond common sense and enters the realm of out and out insanity!
Why would the US and Oceania want to get the rules changed? Out of deep concern for Canada? Or maybe they've had a few cases too, but were smart enough to cover it up? Do you really trust the US? Or the kangaroo exporters?
Put aside for one minute our need to export. Consider our best custmer...which is not the US but the Canadian consumer! Do we owe them a safe product? The safest product in the world? Personally I'm not to keen on eating mad cow!
Maybe we need to reconsider our whole industry. Do we need to have an industry based on exports or one that serves the domestic market? I do realize that without an export market a lot of producers have to go. We might have to go back to the numbers we had before every man and his dog piled into cows! Is the money so good in cows that we couldn't get 25% of producers to quit with a bit of incentive? Take a look around your neighborhood...in ten years most of our producers will be senior citizens! Might be the kindest thing to move them out now?

[rsomer]

cowman: Very thought provoking comments. Do we owe Canadians the safest product in the world? I think we already provide them that. Remember Canada does test for BSE on an ongoing basis. As long as you are eating Canadian cow your risk of contracting BSE is very, very, very low.

A short while ago a man died of CJD (not new variant CJD which is linked to BSE in cattle) in eastern Canada. Although the cause was not pinpointed, it seemed likely he may have contracted the disease as a result of an operation in a hospital. Should we now test every human who donates organs for CJD before allowing the use of medical transplants? Or blood donations? Just step this way sir and we will take a sample of your brain to make sure the blood is safe, better safe than sorry. I don’t think so. After all we know we have TSE’s in the human population in this country as well as the bovine population. Did the news of this mans death frighten people away from hospitals, I don’t believe so. They trust the science. Obviously no blood or organs from this poor man would have been used for any medical purpose. Likewise with the positive BSE cow, she was destroyed. There is always an element of risk but people really need to accept that no 100% guarantees can ever be offered. And we are testing all the time.

We will in cooperation with our trading partners develop appropriate rules for BSE prevention between our countries. That is being done right now even if it slower than we would like. And we will accept product from other countries based on those rules as well as export our product. Those rules will be based on science not media hyperbole or consumer paranoia. The consumer is not always right believe it or not. With food safety as with our Canadian medical system the consumer would continue to demand more and more of the system as long as they perceive they don’t have to pay for it. Science can objectively evaluate the risks, costs, benefits and will determine appropriate testing protocols to ensure a reasonable level of food safety for our consumers, domestic and international. The science says we are presently testing above the required levels. That has to be good enough.

[cowman]

Well I have to disagree with you. The customer is ALWAYS right or he won't be your customer. No one holds a gun to his head and demands he eat beef. We've lost major market share to poultry in the last several years and if the customer gets the idea in his head that beef is not safe, he can buy chicken instead. Or better yet go vegetarian!
What happens when the next BSE animal turns up? Do we dazzle them with more BS? How long can that go on...2 cows 5cows?
It's like the hormone thing in Europe. Science says it's safe, the people don't believe it! So you either produce hormone free beef or you don't sell it. Very simple. And are these people just paranoid ignorant consumers? How many times has the science proven to be a joke? How many times has it been manipulated? People don't trust the so-called "science" anymore...and with good reason.
Personally I don't think beef with hormones is safe! I used to use hormones but I didn't like how it was turning my steers into bodybuilders and my heifers into sex maniacs! I just feel that can't be a good thing. And while I'm on my rant how about systematic parasite killers? You know Ivomec, Grubex types of products. Do you ever get a little leery of those? Now they say they are 100% safe but then they said that about DDT and the estrogen thing for women.
Now I'm not 100% against pesticides but I am against the use of them when there isn't a problem. We don't need to have every animal treated with a systematic?

[rsomer]

Exactly so, we don’t need to have every animal treated with a systemic, and Canada doesn’t need to have every cow tested for BSE.

You raise a good point about the science saying hormones, systemics, pesticides being safe and yet questions remain. Science can be occasionally wrong but if not science, then what? Do we believe the media, or American politicians, maybe the Ladies Home Journal? Science, even if imperfect, is the most objective determinant of food safety we have.

Whether to test or not to test is a difficult issue. You mentioned Europe. The risk of BSE in Europe is much, much higher. The United Kingdom has had 147,071 positive BSE tests up to the end of 2002. For darn sure they should be testing each and every animal. On the other hand we have two positive tests during the same period of time, and one of those was imported from Britain.

Japan is testing all their cows. But lets look at the facts. Japan’s cattle herd is about 1/3 the size of ours. Japan did not ban feeding of animal protein to ruminants. Japan has had eight positives. That would be comparable to 24 positives in Canada. And for the last 5-6 years Canada had banned feeding ruminant protein which is thought to be the cause of spread of BSE. The risk of incidence of BSE in Canada is dramatically less than in Japan. Just because it may be appropriate for Japan to test every cow doesn’t mean the same is necessary for the Canadian product.

If we assume the customer is always right and we test every cow and we find a positive, then what? Will the consumer reaction be Canadian beef is really safe because another positive animal was tested and prevented from entering the food chain or will the consumer reaction be that Canadian beef is infected with BSE and they should be eating chicken instead. Will the U.S. reaction to another BSE positive be that the Canadians are doing such a great job of testing we should allow beef from animals over 30 months into the U.S. too or will the American reaction be to completely shut down the borders to all Canadian beef and cattle just like last time. Maybe the customer is always right but their reaction to BSE positive tests can be very wrong, whether that customer is the Canadian housewife or the Americans south of the border.

Canadians are testing for BSE all the time. And we are removing all Specified Risk Materials from all animals. That probably does more to ensure the safety of our product than tests. I do think our situation is very different from Britain and Japan, a different response is appropriate. Testing every cow won’t help us move beef into the U.S., in fact it would hurt trade relations with the U.S. at a time we need to be harmonizing trade between our two countries.

Yes, there is an argument to test each and every cow but the risk of BSE in our cow herd is very, very, low. I read an article today by John Schmidt, erstwhile Calgary Hearld columnist and present day agricultural reporter. John Schmidt used the term "alleged case of BSE" to refer to the cause of our present crisis. I think he is right, it was just one animal and there are questions about whether or not it really did have BSE. It is too soon to throw the baby out with the bath water and test every cow for BSE based on what happened on May 20.

[cowman]

Whoa! What is this "alleged BSE"? I thought this was a sure thing! Didn't they confirm it was in fact BSE? Wasn't it tested at two labs and was a definitely positive?
I've never heard this "alleged thing" before. I wonder if John Schmidt has anything to back this up?