Question

[ValueChainFX]

We are already lobbying the government and have been for two years to get off their tush and work more for the producers! The government is not willing to do what they have been put in place to do, (In my opinion) because they have their little expert bureaucrats telling them information that is just not true!

Although we have been forced to go through the cumbersome process of dealing with these less than cooperative government folks, we have been working on our own strategies that among other things are building relationships with people in the countries we want to export to. These people have the ability to lobby their own government to assist them in bringing in Canadian product.

Also we have a strong producer movement from across Canada at the moment building momentum for a national grass roots group. The government seems to be stepping back a little as our numbers grow.

I guess we keep moving forward one step at a time and leave the doors open so we don't tick anyone off (at least publicly) and we will reach our goal sooner rather than later!

[cowman]

Our federal government is not going to do much for sure. I hate to rip them completely because quite frankly they do some good in spite of themselves! I do believe the Canadian inspection agency is probably one of the better departments in all of government! At least they have the guts to stand up to the Americans and CCA over the health of our cow herd(the blue tongue thing). And I have to give VanClief credit for backing the vets up! And it would have been a lot easier to roll over and let the Americans have their way.
But basically Value Chain, you are right. We need to solve this problem, not the government. The quote about the experts and the cults is right on! Never put your faith in an "expert", if they are so expert why aren't they doing it???
It's pretty easy to give advice when you aren't paying the bills! And the bottom line is you and I must pay the bills!

[ValueChainFX]

cowman the article that quote came from basically said the same thing! The most desired experts are those that are actually working hands on!

I have been called a hands on expert in meetings with government by the government expert, and had those same people say in other meetings that because I am working hands on they required their consultants to verify or redo some reports (they actually gave us a list) When we talked to one of their experts we were told the costs was $1400.00 a day to verify or review our work!

>>>>> I'm in the wrong business!!!! <<

Or the right business doing it the wrong way!! Go figure!

[rsomer]

Just a comment on "experts". I think our industry needs experts just as it needs producers. I know some of these experts in government and our industry is fortunate to have these people, people who for the most part are very intelligent and hard working. It is my impression that these people could have chosen to work for Cargill, or IBP/Tyson Foods or private industry but chose government instead because they are motivated to help people like you and I. As producers we aren't very good at saying thank you to the experts who dedicate their lives to agriculture. We need to change that.

[ValueChainFX]

rsomer

I agree whole heartedly that we need experts, and they need to be thanked for their hard work and dedication!

There is not a person in the ag business that has not seen the benefit of one of these folks. In fact the government is full of experts, some have come from Cargill and IBP to work for us through the government. My suggestion is very simple. The experts like you and I need to be held accountable for their actions and work with us not against us when they can.

There are many arguments that can be raised for and against this issue, my point is that we need to review some of these so-called experts and get them in alignment with reality!

I can point to a producer that had experts assist him in building a plan to diversify his operation (he feeds 1600 head a day) what is he feeding ... deer, elk and bison!!!! Any ideas to help him now?

The experts suggest putting millions of dollars into marketing, test kitchens, business incubators. How do we as producers feed our family when the agri-business sector is marketing producer we can't even get killed! The experts suggest they are thinking there will be a trickle down effect when they invest agri-dollars into what they call the business side of agriculture! So I guess they don't consider a producer has a business to run! When BSE hit us there was a 70% drop to the producer and a 17% drop to the Business side of the ag business.

I do respect the experts, and do thank them for their hard work and believe when the middle of the month and end of the month pay check comes to them they say a little thank you to every producer that helped them get that check through good times and bad!


When the experts get their hands on something that will put extra dollars in the jeans of producers. When the experts stop studying things to death! When the experts get out of our way when we need to just "GETTER DONE!" Than I will face to face thank them for all the efforts they are putting in!

To those experts that are really making a contribution on your own time. Actually working with individuals or groups in need during these times and really (I mean really) working to build a better agriculture industry for today and for the future. I thank you sincerely!

[cowman]

Maybe I worded that wrong or something! I guess what I was trying to say was what the "expert" is saying isn't necessarily the right way for me or maybe for you! We all know what works for us and what doesn't!
For example: The "experts" tell us mid winter(Jan./Feb) calving is inefficient. And maybe they are right, but not for me. I have other things to do in April, May and June! January and February are a time when I can devote to calving cows. Calves are born in a barn so I can see them and make sure they are up and away. And come November I have a big calf to sell.
Now if you are not to keen on living with them, then don't even try this! Calves freeze pretty fast at -40! You need good facilities and I don't know if that pays or not. My barn was built about forty years ago so it was paid for long ago. Holds up to 20 pairs in a pinch. I have all the goodies in it. TV, micro wave,fridge, washroom/bed, maternity pen etc.
There is no right way and no wrong way. Just whatever works for you. Your bottom line will tell you how you are doing.

[rusty1]

Boy this thread has taken a strange curve. But if it's about calving time, an old rancher who was 2nd. generation to a large Alberta empire, once said "you mess with nature and it well cost you." Look to the deer and elk, and see when they calve. Overall thats probably the cheapest time. Raise cows that calve on their own or die trying and you won't need facilities nor have to live with them.

[cowman]

Rusty 1: That is good for that old rancher. Hey it obviously works for him!
Actually some people like to live with their cattle! Best time of the year for me!
For many, calving in April, May, and June is not very practical. If they are grain farming they have more pressing needs that calving cows. April/May can still be pretty ugly. I guess that leaves June?
What does a June calf weigh come Oct. 1? Will he bring in enough to pay for the cows upkeep? Or do you need to keep him until December or January to get to the weight of a January calf? With all the problems, costs, and time? Maybe you either put in your time working in Jan./Feb. or you put in your time in Oct./Nov./Dec.?
The whole point is: Do what works for you. There is no right way or wrong way, just your way!
The "experts" try to tell us"This is the way"! Most of them wouldn't know which end of the cow to feed but they tell us how it should be done? If they are such "experts" why aren't they out getting rich doing it?
The true "expert" is the one doing it! He lives and dies with his decisions and if he is wrong then he goes broke.

[rusty1]

Cowman - You're right about "you're way being the right way". One can't debate that. And if you are more in love with you're life style than with being the most efficient and running the least cost per lb. of calf raised then go for it. However when I hear producers complain about not making money in the cow business and their cost to raise a calf is twice as much as someone else I know, I have a hard time empathizing. I just saying that the cost to winter a cow comes directly out of the check you get for her calf. If you put $150 per winter into the cost of the calf it's harder to get that $150 added to the value of the calf. Figure itout. What do you have to do, and how much harder do you have to do to set an extra $150 onto the price of the calf at sale time?

[rsomer]

I am reminded of an "expert" I know of who over 20 years ago was on the coffee and donut circuit trying to demonstrate to cow calf producers that cows could be wintered on straw based rations. Here was an example of an expert not only telling us which end of the cow to feed but how it should also be done. At the time straw based rations were not very common. I had an opportunity to speak with this expert last winter. He is now doing policy work with Alta. Ag. but he recalled his days doing extension and his work with wintering rations. He pointed the way and years later a lot of cows made it through the winter of 2002-03 on straw based rations. I can think of so many changes I have seen since I started farming in the early 70s, changes that were developed, demonstrated, and promoted by experts before producers slowly accepted them and claimed them as their own idea. The way we feed cows, calve cows, market the calves is different today then it was then because of these "experts".

[kato]

Last winter I listened to a lot of "experts" touting the benefits of late calving. It worried me. It's not for everyone, as far as I'm concerned. They had studies that proved it paid more to calve late, feed the calves lightly, then sell them off of grass the next fall. The only thing they missed was how to survive for that extra 8 months with no money! I guess after you got through the first year or two, your cash flow would sort itself out, but boy, that's a long time with no income. Their technical stuff was OK, but their practical side was a bit lacking.

The important thing is that what's right for one operation, is not right for another. You have to listen to the experts, sift through what they have to say, and use what applies to you.

We calve in winter also, for a lot of reasons. Same as cowman, big calves in fall are really nice. Our cattle are quiet, as well, having been handled. We've got a few late pasture born calves right now, and they literally bounce off walls whenever you are around them! Our pastures are far from home, so if we're not finished calving by May, we've got problems.

There are dangers in only doing what the experts recommend, and also in ignoring them. You do what fits your setup. You have to think for yourself

[cowman]

Well, I tried to answer this thread in a rather nasty way and got zapped so I'll try a nicer way.
First of all why do you think it costs me $150 more? I would be glad to compare my actual feed costs with anyone, including the June calvers.
First of all I feed a lot of quality straw...with the emphasis on "quality"!
Second I have a cow herd that is raised to be tough and get the job done! I use AI to get the genetics I desire. My actual out of the pocket expenses for feed are twine and diesel!
After four generations in this country and many more in Scotland and England I guess me and mine might know a bit about a cow? There is an art to this thing that all the schooling in the world can't teach you. You either have the "eye" or you don't!
Now by calving early(in a time wasted otherwise) you get a 750 lb. calf instead of a 500 lb. one! I suspect a lot of the people who go on about "efficiency" are really too lazy to get up at 2 AM in January! And probably too lazy to get up at 2AM in june too!