Grain or cattle

[AlbertaFarmer5]

The hay business can't be that bad. Neighbor used to be the biggest grain farmer in the area, and is now 100% hay, no livestock either, sold all the grain equipment, farms some of the best land anywhere too. Claims to be doing quite well at it, and the numbers they tell me will gross as much or more than a canola crop, with a fraction of the inputs, and a much shorter season. Quite a few straight hay operations around here. The feed market is feast or famine. The horse market is nothing but fun ( unless you happen to enjoy getting paid). And the export market is about like Russian Roulette. Years like 2016 remind me why I'm not big into hay anymore. When it rains every day for the entire summer, the hay isn't very marketable.

[burnt]

Interesting posts, AF5. So many similarities to here.

I've thought the same - the amount of "wasted" space that are growing grass or weeds could carry a lot of cows.

[farmaholic]

Grassfarmer seems to have a pretty darn good model.

I wouldn't want to winter calve anymore...been there done that. Scour outbreaks aren't fun.

Most of our land is grain farm-able. The sloughs are nice and clean and our neighbors enjoy salvaging the hay out of them at a real reason-a-bale(reasonable) cost.

Nobody says you can't seed grass on grainland to pasture and hay it....I just chose to go the grain route....with the lack of help here I just didn't think I would be doing either enterprise justice... some of the busy seasons overlapped too much.

I can't say I hated cattle....I even worked part time for 9 years in a stock yards after grade twelve.

[smcgrath76]

I think the cattle thing is disappearing strictly due to returns. Our Provincial Agriprofits report shows a loss of $160 per cow for 2016 and only one "good" year in 2014 across a group that I think are probably some of the better managers. The challenges of gaining economies of scale in cattle is a lot more difficult than in grain. As grain acres expand it is possible to upsize equipment - 20 to 40 to 80' drills are now fairly common. It is tough to upsize cows in the same way, while still employing close to the same amount of labour. We are seeing cows disappear at a fairly rapid pace from our neighbourhood and it is strictly a math problem.
While there are ways to reduce the workload, a lot of that requires a significant mental adjustment and that seems to be easier said than done. With cattle, sometimes doing what appears to be less is actually more. I am currently fairly concerned at the moment about getting to the point where we lose infrastructure in Canada and are exposed to even higher levels of risk where we might not be able to process our own product.
There is room for growth with better grazing models. I also agree that the folks I still know that are in cattle are expanding either through design or necessity. $600,000 quarters do not make for good grazing, unless it is after you harvest a crop of grain. We have seen pasture land trade here for a hefty price this summer. My math shows that the interest cost for debt service on that ground for 5 months of grazing would be $1000 per cow, unless there was a serious managed grazing plan in place (there isn't).

[perfecho]

I stay in cattle because I like it....the returns don't really justify it, but it helps my tax situation...;-)
Have neighbors who will rent the land reasonably, they really don't want everything broke up, fences and trees taken out and sloughs drained. But, I do realize that could change...and that would make my decision for me. there is not enough return to compete. However, there has always been a swing back and forth with cattle and grain, problem is, putting up fence and seeding pasture is getting quite expensive and time consuming.
Like Sean, I do worry about losing our processing and infra structure...part of it is we have an economy that does have higher wages and life style than some competitors growing beef....

[WiltonRanch]

I blame a lot of the decline in cows with BSE mess of 2003. Cows aren’t a get rich proposition. When cattle were the only thing making money it was only because everything else was losing money, land costs were depressed. Grazing was reasonable. We expanded our land base and numbers in the bse years. Even as it has improved from then everything else has gone up. We downsized our herd to what we can handle around home. Everyone is getting older and it’s hard to find help. I figure if we are at a number which best uses our rough ground and complements our grain side then that’s all I want. Seems like it’s an economy of scale. Certain herd sizes are too big but not big enough. 250 head used to be a good number but now I fear it’s probably 400. If you’re mixed it’s getting to where unless you’re a colony a 250 head herd and 2000 acres of crop requires so much labour at times you’re not doing a good job of neither and I wouldn’t put all my eggs in cattle. Get a bad drought and those cows still need to eat.

[grassfarmer]

You cow guys are squeezing the wrong end of the teat here. Demand more for your product and maybe we'll still grow you some feed.

And how's that working for you in the grain sector?

[Sheepwheat]

When I look at Google earth, or drive around the prairies, I often wonder how many cows or sheep or goats etc. could be integrated into most grain farms on non producing land for virtually no cost. Many quarters are easily half sloughs, and nothing has used them for decades. Obviously things aren't as bad as some grain farmers would have us believe, at least not bad enough to want to work that hard.

I do the same thing from the road ways! I find it incomprehensible the amount of land sitting there doing nothing, when it could be producing meat.

My take on the livestock issue, is mainly that the younger kids have not lived through rough times like the parents did. They simply do not have a real need for more money. Wife works, farming is play time for almost all my local neighbors. Farm does not even have to pay the power or phone bill, her paycheck does. I mean this in kindness, it is simply what I see all around me. A few other reasons I see:

1. It takes work and today, most are against that.

2. Why raise animals when you do not financially have to?

3. If I have a bad year, dad has a lot of equity and will bail me out.

4. I need that winter trip after all the hard work of sitting in machinery that drives itself, for a few hundred hours.

5. BSE

6. No money in cattle/sheep, whatever. Trouble is, some of us DO see money. It is like anything else, some make good money, others point at sask ag and food figures as though they are gospel, and a guarantee to lose money. It helps no one to have those "fact" sheets that invariably show losses. The key here is knowing your numbers, not theirs.

7. There is a lack of initiative to try new things. You do not have to farm livestock like it is 1954 any more, there are a lot more options open with feeds/grazing etc. Kids do not know that.

8. It takes time to build a flock/herd. Staying power is essential. Grain is easy, in 90 days, you grow a crop. It is an instant gratification world today. Tying oneself down to YEARS is not attractive to most.

9. There is little historical knowledge. When the older guys sold the cows, the up and comers were often in diapers, and have no clue about what it is even like to have animals. The dads do not encourage it, because they would have to build fences again, Buy balers, etc., and so the kids do not even know it is an option. The dads don't make it an option. Balers are expensive don'tcha know! They are like 60 000 new, son! While the cheap 600 000 dollar combines sit in the cheap 400 by 100 shed! lol

10. Get bigger, bigger bigger. Farming has always been about getting bigger land bases. Livestock, especially some types bucks this trend. It is engrained in us from a young age that unless you farm a certain way, or have a certain acreage, or have a semi or three and grain carts and auto steer and variable rate, and independent opener drills, farming is impossible. DO NOT EVEN TRY it! No one talks about the goat lady who sells goat kids for a killing, off of 80 acres, and makes her entire living off that land base. Or the guy growing garlic on 12 acres who makes more that most grain farmers do. About the alpaca farmer who on a quarter of land, does just fine, owns a store that sells their wares, and is adding 500% value to the raw product. No one talks about the very comfortable 700 acre grain farmer who runs 30 year old machinery, and is a millionaire. It is not sexy, it is not usual, so most kid farmers laugh at those types rather than ask questions and try marketing.

11. Grain farming is sexy, millions of dollars of equipment is sexy. Telling people you farm 23 000 acres is sexy. We all know the drill. When ppl find out you farm, they immediately ask you, how much, as if this is all that matters in the world. Saying 800 acres is not sexy.

[Hopalong]

All the years we had cattle, except toward end, used to think that grain farmers got a better deal from governments.
Crow freight rates, wheat board prices guaranteed, crop nsurance support and more.
More recently, Agristability is a disincentive to diversification.
Decision to get out of cattle was two fold, lack of profitability and trying to do justice to more than one enterprise
Do have a problem with some land not suited to grain farming. Do not want to sell it since it is surrounded by other land we farm. Cost and upkeep of fences, along with crop damage when cattle do get out, has been a problem, even when they were our own cattle.

[malleefarmer]

Livestock and mixed farming making huge comeback in australia over last 5 years. wools good lamb is good and beef whilst the heat has gone out of the market is still good.
Dairy industry is struggling