Following the money

[cowman]

When we sold our calves this year(at a presort) we definitely could see that the black calves outsold the reds and buckskin calves on $ per pound. Some of the biggest Simmental type calves brought a lower overall price than smaller black calves. So what can you do?
Personally I always liked those big heavy Char and Sim calves but you have to follow the money! So I guess it will be black Angus bulls next year!
Having fed all kinds of cattle over the years I know without a doubt that nothing grows like a Char and the Angus have been one of the poorest! And I was not using junk bulls but the best AI bulls available! But if the market wants black Angus calves, I will give them Black Angus calves! The customer is always right!

[raymondb]

The other part of the equation that I noticed is that the smaller framed Angus cows were alot easier on feed than my big Semintals. Idid a bunch of crossing and found that my returns did increase on the calves I sold but my feed bills were still large. But I still do miss feeling good about weaning those 900 lb. calves--you know-the farmer personal pride thing.

[Muttley]

It's nice to wean those big calves but you have to look at the overall costs. My smaller Angus cows eat less than my Charlais or Gelbvieh cows. I also find they have smaller calves and I have less trouble at calving, not only at birth but trying to get them sucking and such.

I have allways said my neigbor with his big cows needs a least $100.00 more tan I do per calf.

[grassfarmer]

So given the above information it surely makes sense to run an Angus type cow herd with a Charolais/Simm bull? Black calves may bring a good price per pound but will be a lot lighter on sale day. This way you combine the efficiency of a smaller cow with the punch of a terminal sire.

[Muttley]

That theory is a good one, I often run a Gelbvieh bull with my Angus cows. The result is usually a extra few pounds. Where it does become a problem is at calving time if one has not done their homework.
The last two years the first bulls sold from my bullpen have been my Angus/Gelbvieh bulls. Most of my customers that use this cross are using them on Angus cows to add a little extra vigor.

Watch you don't buy a 50% bull whose other half is heinz 57.

[15444]

The best combination for any commercial guy would be a Hereford or Simmental base cowherd and then use other breeds to get the right F1 cross. Seeing as how Herefords and Simmentals both have their flaws (i.e. pinkeye and feed wagons respectively), a commercial guy should be able to weigh out the pros and cons and choose one of these breeds for your cowherd. Then just breed this cowherd with the hot breed of the day to come up with the desired cross. Market wants baldies & brocklefaces? Buy Angus bulls to use on your cowherd.
If the market changes to favour tan calves, ship the Angus bulls and buy Charolais bulls to replace them.

To many people do crossbreeding the wrong way and get into one breed totally and then suffer when the market doesn't want them.

[grassfarmer]

Muttley - I was meaning to use a Char OR Simm bull on the angus cows not a crossbred bull. There is far too much mongrelising of breeds in this country in my opinion.
15444 - if you admit that both Herefords and Simmentals have major flaws why would you base a cowherd on them? If you want an F1 hybrid why not keep the easy care cow breed (eg Angus) and use a Hereford or Simmental bull on them? Surely this makes more sense than keeping a high maintainance Simm herd or a herd of Herefords with their bad feet and udders. At least that way you only need one animal(the bull) of a harder keeping breed.

[Bruce14]

If you have a black or red Angus based cowherd why not use a solid black or red Simmental bull?

Color and polled factor can be maintained while adding heterosis and maternal traits.

[circlex]

I'm glad somebody else brought this up.I was in the same boat as some of the other people here, so I got rid of my big framed cows and went to an angus cross cow because of the feed expense etc. I now have all angus cross cows but still use a purebred charolais bull. To keep my calves black or red I use straight red or straight black charolais bulls. My calves are long, thick and have the hair coat to carry them through the winter plus I had very little calving problems. These are some of the best most uniform calves that I have ever raised and sold on the market.You might not believe your eyes but they are purebred straight red and black charolais bulls. Here is the web site to look at some of the bulls I am now using on my angus cross cows.

www.char-maineranching.com

[cowman]

I think the idea here is that the feedlot/packers/retailers want Angus calves not just black calves. They are buying black calves that are obviously Angus. Apparently they grade well and yield very well. It has to do with a meat to bone ratio.
Unfortunately the red Angus calves sort of get lost in the shuffle and don't get the premiums the blacks do. I don't know why?
One feedlot guy told me his black Angus cattle yield over 60% while straight bred Simms are never over 57% and some of the big framed ones down in the low fifties. Charlais only slightly better. Because he is paid on this meat yield he tries to only buy straight bred black Angus steers.
I would suspect a good buyer could probably tell you pretty close what a steers parentage was.

[boone]

cowman,would it have anything to do with the hugely successful direct to the table marketing of Angus beef. Have been served it two out of three times in TO with a angus marker stuck in it on my dining table.

[cowman]

Boone: Without a doubt the Angus boys have done a good job. When you get a certified Angus steak you can be assured it will be a good one.
And you've got to admit they took the breed a long way over the last thirty years or so.
I've always used some Angus in my mix. They are tough little foragers, very fertile, good mommas. The thing I didn't like about them was their lack of bone(which now seems to be a good thing) and their temperment when they calve! I do believe that the older style herford cow was just as tough, just as fertile, just as good a momma! With a sweet temperment! However I believe the breed was basically ruined when they went chasing the Simmental and Charlais breeds and forgot what made them the #1 breed!
Poor feet and udders can be changed in any breed as well as selecting for pigment around the eyes.

[grassfarmer]

circlex - pleased to hear your red or black charolais x calves are doing well - that's what we all need. However these are not really charolais - it's all a matter of %s - over the hundreds of years the Charolais breed has been known in France it was always white. The North American industry likes to change the colour of beef breeds to suit requirements which is fair enough but don't try to tell me these are really purebred animals.

[15444]

Grassfarmer

I have to admit that Herefords and Simmentals have those flaws because they do, just as every other breed has its particular flaws. I am just saying that you would weigh the flaws of the two and decide which breed would work for you in your particualr case. Why not use an Angus cowherd? If the market switched to tan calves tommorrow and threw a huge discount on baldie, what would you do? You would have to get rid of your entire cowherd due to the fact that it takes quite a few generations to get a tan calf out of a Angus line...lol. But, if you had a Hereford or Simmental cowherd, all you would do is cull the Angus bulls and throw a few Charolais bulls in and you would have tan calves to market the next year. Makes economical sense to cull a couple bulls rather then 60 cows to meet market demands doesn't it? Sure you might have higher maintenance or other problems with the Simm's or the 'fords, but how many Char heifers could you buy once you sold your Angus COWherd?

[circlex]

Grassfarmer I think you had better take another look at these animals.I have canadian charolais registration papers with these animals to prove that they are purebred papered charolais animals.This breeder has a homozygous black purebred charolais that has been tested and has the papers to prove this.I'm not here to argue the fact but I'm telling you it's definitely worth looking at cause my calves have proven themselves in and out of the sales ring.Another web site to go to www.buyagro.com then go to red bonanza sales catalogue pg.17 lot 46 and pg.22 lot 63. Both these animals sold at this purebred charolais sale and they both have there purebred charolais EPD's plus there pedigree. They are not %'s if you know how to read pedigrees. It's definitely helped my calves bring top dollar over the past two years. I have neighbors that are seriously thinking of selling there bulls and going black on there angus cows also now that they have seen the results. What else can I say, all the info. is there. It's the real thing believe it or not. If not contact the person selling them at the web site I refered to in my earlier message.