Following the money

[grassfarmer]

circlex - pleased to hear your red or black charolais x calves are doing well - that's what we all need. However these are not really charolais - it's all a matter of %s - over the hundreds of years the Charolais breed has been known in France it was always white. The North American industry likes to change the colour of beef breeds to suit requirements which is fair enough but don't try to tell me these are really purebred animals.

[15444]

Grassfarmer

I have to admit that Herefords and Simmentals have those flaws because they do, just as every other breed has its particular flaws. I am just saying that you would weigh the flaws of the two and decide which breed would work for you in your particualr case. Why not use an Angus cowherd? If the market switched to tan calves tommorrow and threw a huge discount on baldie, what would you do? You would have to get rid of your entire cowherd due to the fact that it takes quite a few generations to get a tan calf out of a Angus line...lol. But, if you had a Hereford or Simmental cowherd, all you would do is cull the Angus bulls and throw a few Charolais bulls in and you would have tan calves to market the next year. Makes economical sense to cull a couple bulls rather then 60 cows to meet market demands doesn't it? Sure you might have higher maintenance or other problems with the Simm's or the 'fords, but how many Char heifers could you buy once you sold your Angus COWherd?

[circlex]

Grassfarmer I think you had better take another look at these animals.I have canadian charolais registration papers with these animals to prove that they are purebred papered charolais animals.This breeder has a homozygous black purebred charolais that has been tested and has the papers to prove this.I'm not here to argue the fact but I'm telling you it's definitely worth looking at cause my calves have proven themselves in and out of the sales ring.Another web site to go to www.buyagro.com then go to red bonanza sales catalogue pg.17 lot 46 and pg.22 lot 63. Both these animals sold at this purebred charolais sale and they both have there purebred charolais EPD's plus there pedigree. They are not %'s if you know how to read pedigrees. It's definitely helped my calves bring top dollar over the past two years. I have neighbors that are seriously thinking of selling there bulls and going black on there angus cows also now that they have seen the results. What else can I say, all the info. is there. It's the real thing believe it or not. If not contact the person selling them at the web site I refered to in my earlier message.

[grassfarmer]

15444 - I'd get tan calves easy enough by crossing my RED angus herd with a Charolais bull! simple! Actually I think if your calves are of good enough quality you have little to gain by skipping back and forth between tan, black or red depending on fashion.

circlex - I'm still not buying the multi colour charolais theory. If they didn't occur in France in 300 years why do they develop in N America in 40 years - they are not naturally polled either which indicates other breeds have been used to poll them. I looked at the lot 46 on buyagro as you said and note she is descended from the great "miss aberdeen" cow - could that be miss aberdeen-angus I wonder? Good cattle they may be but genuine undiluted charolais bloodlines they are not!

[circlex]

I'm not here to argue, I guess you just need to call the breeder himself and ask him about his purebred black charolais. What else can I say but they are purebred and their black..MERRY CHRISTMAS

[grassfarmer]

Merry Xmas circlex,

Here is an article I just found regarding black charolais from the Western Producer archives.
"There were a few double takes when red and black purebred Charolais paraded before judge Jack St. Arnaud.
The black bull and cow, along with a red heifer, are part of a partnership between Henrik and Jeralyn Rasmussen of Innisfail, Alta., and Char-Maine Cattle at Cardston, Alta. The company is called Men in Black.
The Rasmussens own about 20 black females and an assortment of reds among their 130 purebred Charolais cows.
The blacks were part of an upgrading program started five generations ago when Charolais bulls were mated to Angus cows. Careful selection by breeding their cows back to coloured bulls retained the black, which is popular in the United States."
Full URL is: www.producer.com/articles/20030717/ livestock/20030717ls02.html

[15444]

grassfarmer - I agree that if you have both Black AND Red Angus in your cowherd, then you will be able to capture the entire market, but not at one time. Take the greys and tans for instance. Same genetic base (Angus x Char) - but much different price in the ring. With Hereford and Simmental you could have the entire herd producing the colour of calf that the market wants, not just half the herd (and getting possibly discounted for the other half).

As far as getting good enough quality to make up for the drop in prices, that's bull. I know of many guys that had top quality purebred and f1 stockers go into the local fall sale back when tans were ruling the ring. The average price in that sale was $1.20-1.25/lb. The one guy who caught on to the tan craze a few years earlier sent a bunch of lots of tans into the ring. They fetched the highest prices at just under $1.50. The exact same thing happened a couple years back when blacks caught on. Colour will always rule the ring, unless your in a grid market....sad but true.

I agree strongly with you comments about black charolais though...along with black simmentals, black herefords (only in U.S.), black gelbviehs, black limo's, black south devons...and everything else that has to change its pure breed colour in order to fit into the market place.

[ALICIA]

It depends in what part of the country of Canada you live in. A nabour has pure breed limo's and he can't give the black ones away but he gets top dollar for the reds.

If their wasn't us poor straight breeds around you cross breed breeders would not be able to buy your straight breed bulls. So I guess us registered breeders should be getting top price. Just one bull from us can make your intirer calf crop for the season. (In what ever colour you would like) Colour is just want stoped me from testing my bulls, it didn't mater what bull gained the best, the buyer just liked the colour from one bull to the next.

[cowman]

When you get the hide off them they are all the same color! Color has always been a problem and not a very good indicator of quality.
Now all the experts tell us that crossbreeding is the way to go. That F1 female is the desired one and then you cross her to a purebred bull of another breed. This supposedly gets you the most economic heterosis.
Why have a crossbred cow? These are the experts reasons...She is more fertile, she will raise a bigger calf, she will live longer and be more vigorous(sometimes a hell of a lot more vigorous, if you know what I mean!!).
So why is it that the crossbred bull is such a no-no? Wouldn't we want more fertility, longevity, production capability, etc. in a bull? Or would we end up with nothing more than a mongrel? Breeding top notch individuals to each other is always a good thing regardless of a piece of paper. Breeding poor animals to each other creates poorer animals, no matter how "pure" they are. Why is it that the pig business has gone almost totally to composite breeds? Why is it that corn is almost totally hybrid? Simple reason...because you get more production at a cheaper cost.
The days when we breed for such silly things as color really need to come to an end. What we need is a system that rewards the person producing the most desired product? Perhaps when we get electronic tagging there will not only be traceback but also an information flow? Hopefully we could get info on how our cattle grade and yield? If we could get that, then that $5 tag would look like a pretty good investment?

[15444]

Cowman, having tried many breeds of both beef and dairy cattle in crossbreeding scenarios in the past - the vigorous comment is all too true and quite humorous as you put it so bluntly. Secondly, I too hope that we as producers can find some way of receiving performance data back on our animals through using RFI tags. I would have no reason to fight against a $5 tag price then.

[15444]

Cowman, having tried many breeds of both beef and dairy cattle in crossbreeding scenarios in the past - the vigorous comment is all too true and quite humorous as you put it so bluntly. Secondly, I too hope that we as producers can find some way of receiving performance data back on our animals through using RFI tags. I would have no reason to fight against a $5 tag price then.

[corine]

Angus are good cattle. Only problem with black is it's so darn hard to get rid of. I've had calves born that were 7/8 simmental & 1/8 black angus who were still black or grey/black.