Following the money

[grassfarmer]

15444 - I'd get tan calves easy enough by crossing my RED angus herd with a Charolais bull! simple! Actually I think if your calves are of good enough quality you have little to gain by skipping back and forth between tan, black or red depending on fashion.

circlex - I'm still not buying the multi colour charolais theory. If they didn't occur in France in 300 years why do they develop in N America in 40 years - they are not naturally polled either which indicates other breeds have been used to poll them. I looked at the lot 46 on buyagro as you said and note she is descended from the great "miss aberdeen" cow - could that be miss aberdeen-angus I wonder? Good cattle they may be but genuine undiluted charolais bloodlines they are not!

[circlex]

I'm not here to argue, I guess you just need to call the breeder himself and ask him about his purebred black charolais. What else can I say but they are purebred and their black..MERRY CHRISTMAS

[grassfarmer]

Merry Xmas circlex,

Here is an article I just found regarding black charolais from the Western Producer archives.
"There were a few double takes when red and black purebred Charolais paraded before judge Jack St. Arnaud.
The black bull and cow, along with a red heifer, are part of a partnership between Henrik and Jeralyn Rasmussen of Innisfail, Alta., and Char-Maine Cattle at Cardston, Alta. The company is called Men in Black.
The Rasmussens own about 20 black females and an assortment of reds among their 130 purebred Charolais cows.
The blacks were part of an upgrading program started five generations ago when Charolais bulls were mated to Angus cows. Careful selection by breeding their cows back to coloured bulls retained the black, which is popular in the United States."
Full URL is: www.producer.com/articles/20030717/ livestock/20030717ls02.html

[15444]

grassfarmer - I agree that if you have both Black AND Red Angus in your cowherd, then you will be able to capture the entire market, but not at one time. Take the greys and tans for instance. Same genetic base (Angus x Char) - but much different price in the ring. With Hereford and Simmental you could have the entire herd producing the colour of calf that the market wants, not just half the herd (and getting possibly discounted for the other half).

As far as getting good enough quality to make up for the drop in prices, that's bull. I know of many guys that had top quality purebred and f1 stockers go into the local fall sale back when tans were ruling the ring. The average price in that sale was $1.20-1.25/lb. The one guy who caught on to the tan craze a few years earlier sent a bunch of lots of tans into the ring. They fetched the highest prices at just under $1.50. The exact same thing happened a couple years back when blacks caught on. Colour will always rule the ring, unless your in a grid market....sad but true.

I agree strongly with you comments about black charolais though...along with black simmentals, black herefords (only in U.S.), black gelbviehs, black limo's, black south devons...and everything else that has to change its pure breed colour in order to fit into the market place.

[ALICIA]

It depends in what part of the country of Canada you live in. A nabour has pure breed limo's and he can't give the black ones away but he gets top dollar for the reds.

If their wasn't us poor straight breeds around you cross breed breeders would not be able to buy your straight breed bulls. So I guess us registered breeders should be getting top price. Just one bull from us can make your intirer calf crop for the season. (In what ever colour you would like) Colour is just want stoped me from testing my bulls, it didn't mater what bull gained the best, the buyer just liked the colour from one bull to the next.

[cowman]

When you get the hide off them they are all the same color! Color has always been a problem and not a very good indicator of quality.
Now all the experts tell us that crossbreeding is the way to go. That F1 female is the desired one and then you cross her to a purebred bull of another breed. This supposedly gets you the most economic heterosis.
Why have a crossbred cow? These are the experts reasons...She is more fertile, she will raise a bigger calf, she will live longer and be more vigorous(sometimes a hell of a lot more vigorous, if you know what I mean!!).
So why is it that the crossbred bull is such a no-no? Wouldn't we want more fertility, longevity, production capability, etc. in a bull? Or would we end up with nothing more than a mongrel? Breeding top notch individuals to each other is always a good thing regardless of a piece of paper. Breeding poor animals to each other creates poorer animals, no matter how "pure" they are. Why is it that the pig business has gone almost totally to composite breeds? Why is it that corn is almost totally hybrid? Simple reason...because you get more production at a cheaper cost.
The days when we breed for such silly things as color really need to come to an end. What we need is a system that rewards the person producing the most desired product? Perhaps when we get electronic tagging there will not only be traceback but also an information flow? Hopefully we could get info on how our cattle grade and yield? If we could get that, then that $5 tag would look like a pretty good investment?

[15444]

Cowman, having tried many breeds of both beef and dairy cattle in crossbreeding scenarios in the past - the vigorous comment is all too true and quite humorous as you put it so bluntly. Secondly, I too hope that we as producers can find some way of receiving performance data back on our animals through using RFI tags. I would have no reason to fight against a $5 tag price then.

[15444]

Cowman, having tried many breeds of both beef and dairy cattle in crossbreeding scenarios in the past - the vigorous comment is all too true and quite humorous as you put it so bluntly. Secondly, I too hope that we as producers can find some way of receiving performance data back on our animals through using RFI tags. I would have no reason to fight against a $5 tag price then.

[corine]

Angus are good cattle. Only problem with black is it's so darn hard to get rid of. I've had calves born that were 7/8 simmental & 1/8 black angus who were still black or grey/black.

[cowman]

Well Corine, in todays market that is a good thing. Everyone wants blacks. Put a black hide on them and they are suddenly worth 5 cents more. And the market truly does not want Simmental cattle anymore. Just sit in the mart someday and watch the feeders sell. Herefords and Simmental are the poorest sellers.

[Bruce14]

"the market truly does not want Simmental cattle anymore."

Cowman, that 's a pretty blanket and uninformed statement you just made.

Perhaps you can explain to me how the Simmental breed came out of the 2003 bull sale season with the most successful sales of all breeds. Don't just look at the averages but look at the numbers sold and the passed bulls from other breeds.

The hottest cross going is Simmental/Angus whether it is red or black. In a depressed post BSE market Simmental/Angus replacement females are still bringing top dollar. (Check out the Agribition commercial cattle sale results).

Yes the spotted up, extreme old type Simmental are discounted but there are far more GOOD Simmental influenced cattle selling that you think are straight Angus because of solid color pattern.

Go up to the Lloydminster area and tell those good cattlemen that their Simmental/Hereford cattle that have been topping the markets for years are not wanted anymore.

I am afraid you are way out in left field on this one!

[cowman]

Well Bruce, you could be right. I only make those comments by what I see in my own two local marts and by talking to the local feedlot guys.
I will note in the ABS catologue there are only two Sim bulls where 5 years ago they took up half of the catologue. Which indicates to me that there is a "trend" away from Simmental. Western feedlots will not buy any Simmental cattle.
I don't rejoice in their demise! My cowherd would probably contain about 25% Sim blood. I no longer use Sim in the mix because quite frankly the AI bulls available just aren't there. I only use ABS bulls and not Canadian bulls, because the American bulls have numbers based on actual progeny not EPDs. When they say the calf will do something they are very accurate.
Now without a doubt those Simmental cows can raise a monster calf! And when you sell him at weaning at 850 lbs. you get a good chunk of change in your pocket. And if that works for you then fine. There is no right way to raise cattle...only what works for you.

[Bruce14]

Cowman, cowman, cowman. There must be some pages stuck together in your ABS catalogue. THERE ARE 23 SIMMENTAL BULLS IN IT. (Pages 59-67)

There are also 30 more Simmental bulls in the Genex A.I. catalogue. Semex has also has some more. Bouchard Livestock International has another 53 Simmental bulls they are selling semen on.

"I no longer use Sim in the mix because quite frankly the AI bulls available just aren't there."

Cowman I don't know why you can't find them because I have catalogues with well over 100 different Simmental A.I. bulls in 2003.

"I only use ABS bulls and not Canadian bulls, because the American bulls have numbers based on actual progeny not EPDs. When they say the calf will do something they are very accurate."

We have used as much ABS semen as most people up here and can honestly say their bulls are no better or worse than bulls sourced elsewhere. It helps to pay attention to the accuracies of the EPDs. A low accuracy bull may not be accurate. Makes sense.

Canadian and U.S. EPDs are the same. They are all done in the same NORTH AMERICAN evaluation. Calf records are sent to Cornell University from both CSA and ASA and the numbers are combined with that from calves from all over North America. The same process is used in both countries and done exactly at the same time. The EPDs printed in those catalogues are based on actual data from progeny, siblings, parents etc.

Hopefully this helps give you a better understanding Cowman.

[15444]

I can understand where cowman is coming from. When he says there are only 2 Simmental bulls in the ABS book, he's right. The other ones have a dose of Red or Black Angus in them. So they aren't pure, not matter how many years you want to cross them back to german and austrian fullbloods. Getting the black and red colouring in the Simmentals is what saved their behinds. But they are no different then all these other exotic breeds that are chasing after the black colouring in order to sell themselves. Black Charolais is a prime example.

[cowman]

My darned cleaning girl has misplaced my ABS catolog. I could swear there were only two but I sure could be mistaken...I'll plead old age or Alzheimers or something!
Perhaps it was because I really wasn't all that interested in AIing anything this year. The thrill of the cattle business has sort of died in me the last two years. To much drought and too much BSE!
I suspect I will just go out and buy some black bulls although even that is not justified. I really am hoping this cow thing turns around so I can sell out and quit. I don't know how much longer my son will put up with my "expensive little hobby"!