Following the money

[cowman]

Well Corine, in todays market that is a good thing. Everyone wants blacks. Put a black hide on them and they are suddenly worth 5 cents more. And the market truly does not want Simmental cattle anymore. Just sit in the mart someday and watch the feeders sell. Herefords and Simmental are the poorest sellers.

[Bruce14]

"the market truly does not want Simmental cattle anymore."

Cowman, that 's a pretty blanket and uninformed statement you just made.

Perhaps you can explain to me how the Simmental breed came out of the 2003 bull sale season with the most successful sales of all breeds. Don't just look at the averages but look at the numbers sold and the passed bulls from other breeds.

The hottest cross going is Simmental/Angus whether it is red or black. In a depressed post BSE market Simmental/Angus replacement females are still bringing top dollar. (Check out the Agribition commercial cattle sale results).

Yes the spotted up, extreme old type Simmental are discounted but there are far more GOOD Simmental influenced cattle selling that you think are straight Angus because of solid color pattern.

Go up to the Lloydminster area and tell those good cattlemen that their Simmental/Hereford cattle that have been topping the markets for years are not wanted anymore.

I am afraid you are way out in left field on this one!

[cowman]

Well Bruce, you could be right. I only make those comments by what I see in my own two local marts and by talking to the local feedlot guys.
I will note in the ABS catologue there are only two Sim bulls where 5 years ago they took up half of the catologue. Which indicates to me that there is a "trend" away from Simmental. Western feedlots will not buy any Simmental cattle.
I don't rejoice in their demise! My cowherd would probably contain about 25% Sim blood. I no longer use Sim in the mix because quite frankly the AI bulls available just aren't there. I only use ABS bulls and not Canadian bulls, because the American bulls have numbers based on actual progeny not EPDs. When they say the calf will do something they are very accurate.
Now without a doubt those Simmental cows can raise a monster calf! And when you sell him at weaning at 850 lbs. you get a good chunk of change in your pocket. And if that works for you then fine. There is no right way to raise cattle...only what works for you.

[Bruce14]

Cowman, cowman, cowman. There must be some pages stuck together in your ABS catalogue. THERE ARE 23 SIMMENTAL BULLS IN IT. (Pages 59-67)

There are also 30 more Simmental bulls in the Genex A.I. catalogue. Semex has also has some more. Bouchard Livestock International has another 53 Simmental bulls they are selling semen on.

"I no longer use Sim in the mix because quite frankly the AI bulls available just aren't there."

Cowman I don't know why you can't find them because I have catalogues with well over 100 different Simmental A.I. bulls in 2003.

"I only use ABS bulls and not Canadian bulls, because the American bulls have numbers based on actual progeny not EPDs. When they say the calf will do something they are very accurate."

We have used as much ABS semen as most people up here and can honestly say their bulls are no better or worse than bulls sourced elsewhere. It helps to pay attention to the accuracies of the EPDs. A low accuracy bull may not be accurate. Makes sense.

Canadian and U.S. EPDs are the same. They are all done in the same NORTH AMERICAN evaluation. Calf records are sent to Cornell University from both CSA and ASA and the numbers are combined with that from calves from all over North America. The same process is used in both countries and done exactly at the same time. The EPDs printed in those catalogues are based on actual data from progeny, siblings, parents etc.

Hopefully this helps give you a better understanding Cowman.

[15444]

I can understand where cowman is coming from. When he says there are only 2 Simmental bulls in the ABS book, he's right. The other ones have a dose of Red or Black Angus in them. So they aren't pure, not matter how many years you want to cross them back to german and austrian fullbloods. Getting the black and red colouring in the Simmentals is what saved their behinds. But they are no different then all these other exotic breeds that are chasing after the black colouring in order to sell themselves. Black Charolais is a prime example.

[cowman]

My darned cleaning girl has misplaced my ABS catolog. I could swear there were only two but I sure could be mistaken...I'll plead old age or Alzheimers or something!
Perhaps it was because I really wasn't all that interested in AIing anything this year. The thrill of the cattle business has sort of died in me the last two years. To much drought and too much BSE!
I suspect I will just go out and buy some black bulls although even that is not justified. I really am hoping this cow thing turns around so I can sell out and quit. I don't know how much longer my son will put up with my "expensive little hobby"!

[pandiana]

It seems to me the stage is set for major changes in the beef industry. My take on these changes are as follows:
1. The vast majority of the American herd is black. On a recent visit to Houston Livestock Show, greater than 80% of the bos taurus cattle were black (Simmental on display were 100% black). Eared cattle were still traditionally colored but are most often found in Texas and southernmost states because of the adaptability to the harsh climate. The push for black has come from a push to increase the quality of the high price cuts and the 'eating experience'. Of course, the black hide itself is not the issue but the fact that British breeds carried a higher level of intermuscular fat which was believed to be associated with tenderness and flavor. For cattle buyers, Angus and Angus cross cattle were easy to pick out. Obviously, all beef is not high priced cuts, and as long as producers were getting paid for pounds of beef, the market still favored Yield Grade (Continental breeds predominantly)over Quality Grade (British Breeds). Continental breeds tend to grow fast, in some cases bigger framed, with a higher percentage of lean meat yield. British breeds tend to grow slower, with frequently a high degree of waste fat, but more grade Choice and Prime. Much of our Triple A beef goes to the US and restaurant trade. As our large packers are American and a large portion of our exports were American I am surprised that black was so long in coming. The bottom line was, we werent getting a premium and there was still a good demand for lean meat yield.

2. More and more producers are using planned breeding which in turn allows for more calves to be sold on a grid that produces premiums for quality and uniformity. Buyers are rewarding producers for uniformity and breed composition. Feeders target uniformity which allows them to finely tune feeding to target finish on calves to maximize return on their investment. British cattle tend to finish much earlier than Continental cattle which may or may not be an advantage, depending on the market.

3. Heterosis or hybrid vigor is the singlemost economic factor in beef production next to fertility. Maximum hybrid vigor is attained in the F1 cross. According to Harlan Ritchie, "Montana researchers recently put a dollar value on maternal heterosis. They reported that crossbred cows return $50 to $70 more per year than purebred cows. If the average cow stays in the herd for 6 years, the advantage for a crossbred cow would range from $300 to $420 over her lifetime. However research has shown that crossbred cows stay in the herd longer than straightbreds indicating that lifetime returns could be even greater". Traditionally, rotational crossbreeding sysems use to maternal breeds to produce the momma cow and a terminal sire to produce the calf. Introducing too many breeds into a system reduces uniformity and increases mongrolization. One of the consequences of the 'color war' has been to change all breeds black by upgrading with Angus genetics. The consequence of this is the hybrid vigor can be lost in earlier generations as was pointed out in earlier posts. On a recent trip to Agribtion and Farmfair it was very evident that the characteristics that determined breeds were disappearing. Angus was becoming larger, with more growth and also higher birthweights. Continental breeds were beginning to look more like Angus. It would appear that we are inexorably being pulled in the direction of the hog industry where a very few breeds will be used by seedstock producers to produce a crossbred cow maximizing hybrid vigor, uniformity and quality.
At this point, it seems to me that the ideal beef cow is a BritishxContinental Cross. I would personally go with Angus or Red Angus crossed with Gelbvieh or Simmental. If the market for large frame heavy calves was still profitable, Charolais could be used as a terminal sire.
4. Crossbred bulls? Not a problem if you still maximize hybrid vigor by using bulls that are the same breeds as you cow base. i.e. Angus Gelbvieh bull on Angus Gelbvieh cows will keep max. hybrid vigor. This is why some breeds have developed crossbred bulls like the "Balancer" Gelbvieh x Angus in order to reduce the steps in a rototional breeding program. These bulls have all the advantages of a purebred in that they are registered, with known pedigree, performance data and EPD's.

[Bruce14]

pandiana what can I say except EXCELLENT POST!

[grassfarmer]

Yes Pandiana good post,
I see two dangers in the way the industry is going with regard to hybrids though.
1) is the lack of genetic diversity that you mentioned. It is probably the biggest threat to cattle genetics I can see as the same handfull of bulls are used to improve and "colour" other breeds like Leachmans did.
We will fall into the same trap as the dairy industry where a huge percentage of the global dairy herd is off 16(?) Holstein bulls. It was sheer stupidity to mongrelise the Ayrshire cattle breed in Scotland for example by incorporating Holstein - also the Norwegian Red.
2) Hybrids in the pig and poultry industry predominate which leads to speculation they will in the beef industry to. One thing to be kept in mind is that these animals live in totally "controlled" environments with no variation in temperature or humidity and rations that never vary and carry antibiotics at trace levels. Take them out of that environment and they are useless - they don't have the brains or knowledge to root for food and couldn't survive outside in fluctuating weather conditions and temperatures. If we breed cows that can produce well on tightly controlled rations and conditions what use would they be to graze mountain range? or in a drought? or if feed supplies are stretched like they were last winter? I would be very wary of relying on hybrids as the major source of beef production.

[cowman]

I would ask you what is a purebred? Are Angus cattle purebreds? Was that amazing growth the result of selection alone? Now I'm sure we'll hear a whole lot of talk about the integrity of the breeders or the breed association etc. but it is the best known dirty little secret that the "British breeds" got a little help.
Take the hereford breed as an example. What was Titan 777? How about Perfection? Well I used Titan semen and I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts he sure wasn't a hereford! He had a healthy dose of Simmental! And how about Perfection? He won just about every show in the states and what was he? Well his momma was a red Holstein! I knew a lot of old hereford breeders and they could pick the Sims out right away.
As far as the continental breeds go they were mostly bred up from an open herd book.
The work that the Alberta government did at Kinsella showed very clearly that heterosis can be maintained and even slightly improved over the F1 cross by using a large number of breeds. It also showed that some dairy breeds in that cross improved overall productivity. Of course the various beef breed associations condemned the whole program as being sacriligious or something. And if you've ever been to Kinsella you know it is not some cow paradise but about the toughest environment a cow could want. Read Sherm Ewings book.
It would be nice if all of us could get info on how our cattle grade and maybe be paid for that? We just might be surprized!

[pandiana]

cowman, technically, in most Breed Associations, a purebred animal is one that is registered to purebred parents. Animals in some associations have open herdbooks which allow the introduction of other breeds in order to 1) strengthen a small gene pool (i.e. increase diversity) or 2) specifically to introduce desirable economic traits not already found in the breed or that are in such low numbers as to not be feasible to breed up (such as spontaneous mutuation such as occur in polled animals). To become 'purebred' these animals must be bred up 3 or 4 generations (>88% or 92%). These animals will always be classified as purebred, never fullblood. Fullblood animals are those that can be traced back to the original herdbook without any contamination and in some breeds must be DNA typed to verify this. In this country, as has been pointed out, there are fewer fullblood genetics available. Economics dictate that regardless of the breed, what counts is what you can sell. The essense of genetic selection, regardless of the breed, is to concentrate desirable traits most usually by strong selection for these traits, often involving line breeding. For hundreds of years this has been the method used for producing the breeds that we see today. No doubt, other breed contaminants work into pedigrees, but for the most part this is of little consequence as they would soon be diluted out.

I am certainly not aware of the study that you refer to. If this is indeed the case, it would go against every principle of genetic selection that forms the basis of modern seedstock production.

The reason that crossbreeding produces healthier, long lived offspring stems from the fact that in the process of selecting for wanted traits, you also increase the probability of undesirable traits that are recessive (not seen) as there is only a single copy of the gene. But when two animals are mated that carry the defective gene they defect is present. By outcrossing, you would significantly reduce the probability of defective genes occurring.

[pandiana]

"It would be nice if all of us could get info on how our cattle grade and maybe be paid for that? We just might be surprized!"
I guess this topic on change in the beef industry wouldn't be complete without discussing your comment on how our cattle grade.
For the most part, this is a non-issue for cow/calf producers that sell their calves in the fall and are interested only in a live calf with excellent WWt.

However, more progressive seedstock producers are anticipating that some primary producers will want to get paid for their quality product and conversely, as markets tighten, buyers are looking for that uniform, feed efficient and healthy calf that will grade near the top for either Yield, Quality of both.

Some seedstock producers have been using ultrasound to identify carcass quality in their herdsires and their offspring in order to propogate the best genetics.

More recently, DNA tests are coming on stream which measure marbling (leptin gene) or calpain/calpistatin (tenderness). Variations in the desirable allele are correlated with increased marbling or tenderness, respectively. These allelles are not breed specific although the desired genes do show up with increased frequency in breeds that are known to have these traits. However, there are some cattle, Angus included, which have no copies of these desirable traits. The ABS and Genex semen catalogues have added the results of these test where available to their selection criteria.

Along the same line and incorporating results from carcass data from packers, ultrasound, and now DNA testing, new EPD's have been developed. The Gelbvieh breed was probably the first to make available and EPD for Grid Merit (GM) and Feedlot Merit (FM) units are in $ which allow comparison of the $ you would expect in comparing one animal with another for this trait. Grid Merit roughly correlates with Quality Grade and Feedlot merit would look at Yield Grade (Carcass weight, Ribeye). Most other breeds seem to be coming up with similar EPD's including Simmental and Angus this year.

I believe these additional tools will used by commercial cattlemen looking for a competitive edge in marketing their cattle in order to capture maximum value, just as the progressive seedstock producers is working to this end.