Following the money

[ALICIA]

What would you think a 2 year old first time calver would grade as. But all I know is I got $200.00 so I guess it dosn't matter, she was a cull and sold as one.

[cowman]

Pandiana: The experiments at Kinsella were carried out by Roy Berg of the University of Alberta. He certainly thought outside the box! He infuriated just about every breed association in North America because of his work. Except of course the guys who were working up composite breeds...like beefbooster, Hays Converters etc. Oh, and the commercial guys.
I don't know if these "composites" are now considered purebred or not?
Every purebred breed started out as something on somebodys farm. Whether it was in England or Scotland or Germany doesn't really matter. And a good cow is a good cow whether she is Angus or hereford or Gelvieh? I suspect some of the best cows in the world don't carry around a little piece of paper telling you how "royal" they are. Sort of like our so called royalty in humans? I mean Prince Charles has sort of shown what a dog he is?

[pandiana]

Two very good points, grassfarmer.
"is the lack of genetic diversity that you mentioned. It is probably the biggest threat to cattle genetics "

On one hand I agree that using a few AI sires, such as seen in the Holsteins, reduces genetic diversity to a dangerous level. On the other hand, the Holstein is a perfect example of how powerful genetic selection is in that for the economic trait selected, milk production, there is no equal. However, as for hybrid vigor and stayability, I understand the average life of a Holstein is about 3.5 lactations. Therefore, selection of economic traits by seedstock producers, coupled with crossbreeding for hybrid vigor would seem to me the best possible scenario.

"totally "controlled" environments with no variation in temperature or humidity and rations that never vary and carry antibiotics at trace levels."
This is probably the most often cited reason that the hog model will never fit the cattle industry. Without a doubt, most of us cannot see cattle in a similarly controlled environment. On the other hand, cattle breeds have proven to be very adaptable to different climates and feeds although some significant differences exist between breeds. In view of this it would still seem prudent to match your breed choices to your own environment. Hereford, for example, will never compete with continental breeds for bringing in the big calves, but has a reputation of making do in the poorest environment and coming home bred (at least this was the old Hereford). So by crossbreeding F1 using purebred seedstock you should still be able to get uniform calves that meet the market ideal. For example in the above case you could use Hereford and black continental.

[cowman]

Actually Pandianna every AI school teaches that the optimum cross breeding program is a terminal breed on a F1 maternal female. The reason for this is the F1 female is vastly superior to the straight bred female. When I say optimum cross I am speaking of actual production. Roy Berg showed that you could maintain and actually slightly increase that production through the use of many breeds.
But the terminal breed used on the F1 female is pretty well the gospel at the AI schools.
I believe the first cross gives you a 20% hybrid vigor kick while the "optimum" cross mentioned above adds another 10%, thus 30%. I remember my instructor telling us that if you are commercial and not crossbreeding then you'd better have a lot of oil wells!

[grassfarmer]

Cowman I would agree with what Pandianna says in her last post which highlights the role of the hereford in the tough conditions of SE Alberta. This is the kind of terrain that hybrids will struggle on commercially - yes they can breed at an earlier age and wean a bigger calf but not without an uneconomic level of supplementation.
Experiments at Ag research places are fine but how many of these run a herd through it's entire lifetime in these tough conditions?(and at a profit?) The families that have made a success of ranching tough terrain anywhere in the world through several generations know the kind of cow that pulls them through.

[cowman]

grassfarmer: I can't argue with success! However I would point out that wherever a herford can cut it so can a black baldie? So there is a tough F1 female. Go out to Kamloops and that is just about all you see? And Kamloops is pretty tough?
The experiments at Kinsella ran for over twenty years and they were run with the idea of making the rancher more money. Roy Bergs ideas were radical to say the least. It is a tribute to the government that they kept financing him even with all the pressures from the various breed associations to shut him down. The man did some very necessary work.
Believe it or not I am not against the purebred business. Everything I own was paid for by purebred Hereford bulls. I was raised in the business and my anscestors are probably rolling in their graves right now by all my sacriligious ways! I can honestly say my old AI instructor(Alex Mills, a fine Scotchman) planted the seeds that led to my downfall!
But I've raised a few cattle in my days. I've probably tried about every breed there is and I've had good ones from every breed...and quite a few that I wish I'd never seen! And I definitely don't know it all and I'll frankly admit that. All I can do is what works for me and what puts the most money in my pocket.

[pandiana]

Actually grassfarmer, I agree with cowman and would contend that a Hereford cow crossed with either Continental or British would outperform a straightbred cow almost all of the time even in this harsh environment. By using Hereford as your starting place you are building in the do-ability you need for that environment and then adding heterosis. I believe commercial cattlemen should let seedstock producers handle the purebreds so that the commercial man can get maximum bang for his buck on these F1 crossbreds.

[ALICIA]

Herefords are the British bred. I just love sitting and reading about all the bad traits the Herefords have. I guess seeing that Herefords are the most knowen beef bred in the world. Everybody must of owned one or two to be able to say that they all have bad feet, bad this, bad that.
BUT you know I'll bet the the price of your top cull old cow that I could go out tomarrow and buy a Charla, Semie, Angus, limo and she would be so bad you's would not what to adment want bred she was.
Funny you know 75% off all breds have hereford in their some were. The other 25% is all the rest. So yes I guess you can find falt with the HEREFORD they are just in everything that is beef.
Herefords- easy to keep
less bone wieght
most or all grade A or
beter on less feed
ready for market sooner
at the customer carcuss
weight of 650lbs. or
700lbs.
keep 2 herefords over
one of another bred
etc. 2 hereford calfs
1400lbs (good
herefords)
1 charla calf
900lbs (good
Charla)
difference 500lbs and
2 herefords eat what
1 charla would eat.
I'm a good hereford breeder and my Herefords don't have bad feet.

[cowman]

When I first embarked into crossbreeding I went whole hog! Syncronized everthing and AIed 120 over two days. Simmental and red Angus and some herford on the better purebred cows. Then out with 3 Char two year olds that I paid an average of $3700 each for. This was about 1980.
Well my AI rates were not very good...think I got 47 AI calves or something!
Come fall guess which calves were the biggest and the best? You guessed it the Chars! The steers outweighed the others by over 70 lbs.!
I continued to AI but on a smaller scale(with much better results,usually in the 80% range)...about thirty a year, always using Char bulls for cleanup. In 1992 I weaned my char steers at 832 lbs. with an overnight stand and they sold for $962 after all deductions. That was the best bunch of steers I ever raised...they even asked me to stand up in the auction mart for a standing ovation! I still have a video of those calves. In those days tan calves rocked!
So you might understand why I like Charlais! I will admit I have had Sim calves who have been just as good but they never sold like that.
I guess you could say my cow herd are now a bunch of "mongrels". The crossbred cows are about one third hereford, one third red angus, one third Simmental with a slight dash of Gelvieh in there. I haven't bought a bull in years but just keep a couple or three AI calves each year out of my better older cows. Sim And Char cross bulls. Two years on the job and then they are gone. I don't think I've got any kind of an inbreeding problem.

[pandiana]

On rereading my previous thread I thought it looked like a blanket endoresment of Hereford cattle over other breeds. It's not. My point was that Hereford serves as an choice to maximize production in a particular environment. Alicia, you do bring up strong points in support of Hereford and other smaller frame breeds. Having said that, it's a little hard to find some of those small Herefords and Angus cows. I recently saw a 3000lb Hereford bull and there are many 2000 lbs Angus cows out there.

[Bruce14]

Cowman if you used that much Charolais for that long why is there not more Charolais ifluence in your remaining cows.

No offence intended just curious.

[Bruce14]

P.S. Happy new year Cowman and all other Agri-ville users. Hoping that the 2004 will bring some better news to Canada and the beef industry.