Nero Cowboys

[cowman]

On the lease question. A few years ago(when Klein tried to do the end run around the leases)the lease owners were recieving a net income over and above all grazing/lease fees/taxes of $37 million dollars. The income came from exploration fees from the oil companies. Kleins attitude was that leaseholders were only renting the grass and were not entitled to the exploration fees. At that same time I was renting some private pasture and I will note I never got one cent from the seismic that went over that land(or expected any).
But the courts have ruled that grazing leases are real property so that isn't the situation here. But the fact also remains that the people of Alberta are losing $37 million a year by having cows on those leases. So what is the solution? One solution might be that the government expropriate the leases at fair market value? Then lease out the grazing rights(and only the grazing rights) for say a five/ten year period? To the highest bidder on a tender system? I remember the debate when this system was suggested. One old rancher complained that that lease had been in his family for close to one hundred years...the reply was that maybe it was time someone else got a chance!

[bombay_43]

On the lease land topic:

Several years ago, the issue of who was responsible for fire fighting costs came up within our municipality. A bylaw was implemented ultimately making quote: “the owner of the property where the person in possession and control of property which is the situate of the incident if not located on the privately owned land” responsible for costs incurred by the fire services. That means grazing lease holders are responsible for fire fighting costs on property they control.

The bylaw goes on to state “where the fees or charges are not paid upon demand by the M.D., then in default of payment, such fees or charges may be charged against the land as taxes due and owing in respect of that land.”

How many more fires do you think would break out on these pieces of lease if the grass and weeds were not grazed down every year? That would be an added expense to Alberta tax payers as well.

For those of you who do own grazing leases, it may be worthwhile to check what regulations have been put in place in your municipalities! I for one am not too happy being responsible for someone elses negligence on my lease!

By the way, even the trapper on my lease holds no responsibility, as it is me that pays the land taxes.

Free country as long as we do what they say!

[kato]

I'm not so sure that it's a "cheap food" policy exactly, it's more a matter of having a system controlled by huge corporations who's sole function is to generate profit, and keep up the share values. All they have to do is have a smaller profit than the quarter before, and their shares take a lickin'. Imagine, if they show a loss! Therefore, if there is a loss to be endured, it must be passed on down the line until it hits the spot where the losses will be absorbed.

The top of the heap is commited to profit, while those at the bottom take the hit for them. We are independant, and answer to no one but the bank, so as long as we are willing to soak it up, and the banks are willing to give us the money to keep banging away, things will not change. They will give us the rope we need to hang ourselves as long as they are reasonably sure they can recover their losses. If not, the plug gets pulled, and our unsecured creditors take the hit. These are generally other small businesses who are also at the bottom of the pile. Do we see a trend here?

The 'big'at the top collect the profit, and the 'small' at the bottom take the real risk, and cover the losses.

The real question is "How do we change this picture?"

[cowman]

kato: In Europe I am sure the big corporations rule the roost too? Government policy is what drives a sustainable agricultural sector. A classical example is our dairy and poultry industries. Government policy(supply management) has allowed these industries to flourish while other sectors have languished? And in reality hasn't Europe got a type of "supply management"? I mean they basically produce all the food for the EU while limiting imports? Their export problems are being slowly taken care of by set asides and targetted subsidies?
Balancing supply and demand eliminates distortions in the market place. In other words it gets rid of the boom bust cycle, supplies affordable food, provides a reasonable profit for everyone. It provides stability for everyone. And a wide open free market will never be able to do that.

[Horse]

To bombay it always comes up when leases are mentioned that lease holders are responsible for all of these things such as fire liability ect the last time I looked I to am responsible for such and I do not have the luxury of free rent or 5 -10% of going rate . Just show me anyone that gives thier annual lease payment to thier renter on free hold land.
Take last yr when ralph and co gave $4 per acre on uncultivated pasture on these 40 acre per cow leases thats $160 per cow ,not bad for land you dont own.
As for value of leases the A C C did a study on values and came up with a sale value amounts to what the lease cost as compared to what it will produce in essence the leases are to cheap on an A U M bassis but they wouldnt publish it because it look bad for lease holders os they charged $20 for the report that we as producers paid for in the first place .
If resource revenue from a lease are an intregal part of a lease why is 2 identical 1/4s the same price when 1 has 2000$ revenue before you even put a cow on .
There is 6000 lease holders out there that has a very substantal advantage over the rest of us it is hard to compete. A few months ago there was talk of a cow cull mabey if we just got rid of the welfare cows the rest of us could hang on.

[bombay_43]

Horse: You have not addressed the original cost of the lease. I told you, you can purchase a grazing lease just like the rest of us did! They come up for sale all the time.

Government are the ones who allowed this to take place. I don't think you want to see the whole picture here!

When leases were offered to the farmers for just the cost of renting it, 20 or 30 years ago, it was a different senario. Some farmers have paid substantial prices for grazing leases. I don't feel they are All getting the free ride that you imply.

[cowman]

Bombay: Of course they aren't getting a free ride. The price of the leases has risen to reflect the "exploration fees" that might be available. And you are definitely right the government allowed that to happen and then turned around and tried to welch on the deal...with the encouragement of the oil companies who thought they could get a sweetheart deal!
There are no easy answers to this problem, as Ralph Klein found out when Jack Horner and the boys buffaloed him! And hey maybe better that you old cowboys get some money out of it than the government? At least you guys spend it in the local community rather than pissing it away like the government would?

[Horse]

Well mabey I dont see the whole picture but I can see that if I bought stocks in a company selling wigets and the govmt decided that widgets are to be taxed to death or some such thing I would lose my investment real quick. So if I paid for a grazing lease and the govmt decided to do the right thing and make a level playing field for us all and at least up the grazing fees to private rates mabey I would be more sympethic.
Threr is a lot of support for these leases to be put up for bid at 10 yr intervils instead of renewal. That sure would establish a price in a hurry wouldnt it.

[cowman]

So how much are the grazing fees? You never hear what they are. I do know that the community pasture fees aren't such a great deal by the time you factor in your trucking costs. My neighbor got 25 cows into a Community pasture type deal and he figured it was a pretty good deal at $21 AUM after he'd included the price of his trucking. He was less impressed in the fall when he got 2 less calves back than what he sent!

[Horse]

Cowman the fees are 1.39 in northern alta Central 2.32 Southern 2.79 per A U M Now I would say that is a sweetheart deal And if someone wants to pay me for something I dont even own just send them over. If the govmt was to pay compensation how many leases would stay in the family but be sold for large sums so they could hold out thier hand for it. Much like suffield where the people around there were so mad because the millitary moved thier little gold mine of horses and free range out on them.