Early bull sale prices?

[hgb]

Here in Alberta the early bull sales have started, a couple of them are ones we have attended before, at Lloydminister and north east of Lacombe. Time did not allow us to attend and was wondering if anyone could give a general sales report of any bull sales so far. Thanks

[pandiana]

I heard Creech's averaged $2500 down from $3100. I was told Triple S was around $2800.

[Bruce14]

D Bar C Red and Black Simmental and Angus Bull Sale at Lacombe:

47 Simmental Bulls averaged $3118
4 Black Angus Bulls averaged $2375

[grassfarmer]

Triple S, Pandiana? do you mean Lazy S at Mayerthorpe? It said on the radio that sale averaged $3100. Triple S red angus sale is later in the spring or is there another triple S sale (the shoot shovel and shut up sale perhaps? ;o))

[cowman]

Well with those kind of prices it is pretty apparent that there is no shortage of cash in the cattle business! Perhaps things aren't as bad as we all make it out to be?
Kind of hard for the politicians to be handing out money when the cattleman doesn't show any need?

[Bruce14]

What those prices tell me is there are still some out there see a future for the beef industry in Canada. People who realize that it will be tough but are committed to maintaining the quality of their herds. The bulls they buy this year will produce the calves that sell into one of the hottest markets we have ever seen.

There are many mixed farms that have been hit harder on the grain end by rising inputs and record fertilizer prices combined with low grain prices yet they seem to put a crop in every year. I don't hear of a lot of them not buying fertilizer so why would we expect them to think $3000 is unthinkable for a bull which will be used for more than one year.

All bull sales will not be as good as the sales mentioned above but I am happy for those people who have received those prices and glad their customers are able to see the bright future the beef industry has once we get over this hurdle.

This has nothing to do with cash floating around the cattle business and everything to do with people determined to get through this somehow.

[raymondb]

You still need CASH to be that determined to pay those prices for bulls. The buyer could have got the same bull for alot less if they would not have bid so high. I agree with cowman-looks like the cow/calf guy still has alot of cash. Boy do we ever send mixed messages.

[grassfarmer]

I agree with Bruce 14, Things are tough just now but we must look to the future. I will be buying a bull next week and I see it is a chance to save some money - buy a better quality bull for less money than I paid last time. Besides if you are running 100-200 cows and need a bull this year the difference between paying $2000 and $3000 will be the least of your worries at the moment.

[Bruce14]

That's exactly right grassfarmer. We will never be able to buy as much quality for our dollar as this year when it comes to buying bulls.

I have heard some people talking of doing the bull swapping thing and that's fine as long as you know what all you are getting besides the bull. Make sure that bull has a clean bill of health, no Trich, BVD etc. and passes a semen test.

Are you taking a bull home or a wreck that will cost you many times more?

[bombay_43]

Do either one of you raise bulls to sell by chance?
I can't see paying those kind of bull prices either! Market dropped another .10 on feeders today in NE Alberta. Can't justify paying that much for a bull and anyone who lives strickly off the farm can't either! 800 lb. calves selling for .51 today! You are not breaking even anymore!

Maybe you boys were wise enough to sell last fall? Those of us who back ground and sell in Jan., Feb. or Mar., must have optimism and believe in the industry, or we would have bailed a long time ago. Business as usual, and hope for the best right? Well if things don't change soon, you're going to see some pretty terrible wrecks!

Many can't hang on until ....when? The new report says years!

Optimism and hoping to maintain a good quality herd at these prices, won't carry you too far! Remember what they say about hope! HOPE IN ONE HAND, AND CRAP IN THE OTHER, AND SEE WHICH HAND YOU GET MOST IN!

[grassfarmer]

bombay_43, I would disagree with you pessimistic outlook. In my opinion agriculture is not a short term project - people that farm and live hand to mouth from month to month will likely not make it in the long run.What happened to "live as if you will die tomorrow and farm as if you will live forever"? I am an eigth generation farmer and we didn't get where we are by giving in easily or leaving farming to take a job in town, we are here for the long haul.
I was brought up with the bull buying theory that a commercial cattle producer should pay up to the price of 4 fat steers for a herd bull. A seedstock producer should pay up to the price of 4 of his bulls to purchase a new herdsire. Over the years it has looked sensible advice to me and it makes the bull prices look attractive as a buyer this year.

[Bruce14]

That "New Report" everyone is flapping about was written in mid-July 2003.

There were no export markets at all at that time and it might have been a fair assessment AT THAT TIME.

Excuse some of us for being the slight bit realistic and having an attitude that might just see us through this mess.

[cowman]

When we were buying our "top genetic" bulls last year at $3000 we were getting About $1.12/lb. for that 800 lb. yearling or $896. Now for that same yearling we get $.60/lb or $480? So we should be paying $1607 for the same quality.
The old rule of thumb in Alberta was always 3 fat steers for the commercial bull and 5 fats for the purebred herd. That was what the breed associations always pushed, although very few ever paid it! Maybe they figure it differently in England?
The point is how does this look if you are a politician? On one hand we have farmers crying about poverty and having to sell land to survive, or having to go to the food bank, and then they show a complete lack of discipline on their input costs? It's like telling the public you are broke and then going out and buying a new John Deere! It just won't wash!
And let us not forget for one minute that this $3000 bull now has a salvage value of 18 to 20 cents instead of 75 cents.
Maybe the ones buying these high priced "top genetic" bulls are actually the people who are in it for the fun? The doctors, lawyers, accountants, oil field boys? I guess for them the bottom line doesn't really matter?

[grassfarmer]

Cowman, Politicians never know what price cattle sell for - if they need to discuss it in Government they ask someone who knows. Besides no way can $3,000 be considered a huge price for a bull. If lots of purebred guys were paying $50,000 that would look worse in the current climate. The bull I buy this spring will realistically breed me six calf crops on average with over 30 calves to sell per year - say 200 calves of the bull. Paying $3000 instead of $2000 only costs me $5 per calf extra and I think that is a good investment. The return I get on his calves will be spread over 6 years with the calves selling from fall 2005 - 2010 so the price calves are making this week should not be the deciding factor. How have your calves averaged out over the last six years ? - I guarantee a lot higher that the 60 cents/lb you quote today.

[15444]

And then by chance, the bull injures himself trying to breed a cow on the other side of a fence or some other sutpid thing and you just lost a whole heap of money!

If you buy a $2000-3000 dollar bull post BSE, it made sense. Even if the bull got screwed up in his first year, you could get about half your money back. Now the return might be 1/4 if your lucky.

I agree with Cowman. The only ones I can see that are paying the usual prices for bulls this year are the playboys who who want to be cowboys.

Another question I wonder about is how many of these bulls are being bought back by the owners? Have some of your friends in the crowd, paying top price only to turn around and give you the bull to send to slaughter, just so your sale doesn't look too bad on paper!

Another thing you have to wonder is what the price of bulls will be when the test stations have their sales in late March and into April? Looking at stations in Douglas, Gunton and Oak Lake in Manitoba. Thinking that there are either going to be alot of low reserve bids or alot of bulls going home on the trailers!