Bull sale logic?

[grassfarmer]

I was at Rawes Charolais sale yesterday and was lucky enough to be able to pick up one of the very top bulls for $3000. This sale had 68 head on offer from 400 cows and they were excellent although I believe they only averaged around $2500.
Before the sale started we had to sit through the speech telling us how everything was rosy in the cattle industry and that the calves we sell off the bulls we buy this Spring will bring the highest $ ever. Best case scenario, this may very well be true - given the low N.American cattle inventories. I was however querying the logic of trying to talk up the current bull trade on the strength of this. If the trade does improve hugely and calves are $1.40 again calves off the rubbish bulls will sell well too. In my opinion the real test of bull quality is the ones that are siring calves that earning premiums at this moment when trade is at its lowest ebb. I forsee bigger and bigger differences emerging between the top cattle and the majority of run of the mill calves.

[15444]

Can't be too big of differences when 4 to 5 weight calves are rumoured to be hitting $100 at some auction marts. Just something I heard from another guy at the local cattlemen's meeting. Don't know if the prices are from Eastern or Western markets or even how valid it is. But if it is true, I suspect that all hell has broken loose?

Hopefully the latest inquiries into the gouging happening at the supermarkets will find some disturbing information and maybe stir change?

[cowman]

I wonder too if top calves will enjoy a premium. At one time they definitely did but it seems like now they are basically just calves? You go out and raise big stout calves, use top genetics, and do you get paid for it? Maybe. Maybe not.
I used to get disgusted when I took 750 lb. calves sired by top AI bulls to the auction and in the end made only a couple of cents over the dogs. Now I knew those calves were going to rock and roll when they hit the feedlot and someone was making money on them for sure. In fact I had one old boy who bought them just about every year and he never backed up when he was bidding. Unfortunately he got old and sold out.
John Rawe raises good practical cattle and he is a real cowman, not a playboy. I believe the breeders "pedigree" might be as important as the bulls?

[surespendalot]

It is not that the good calves will bring much of a premium, but rather the poor ones are almost worthless.

[grassfarmer]

15444, Is that $100 per hundredweight you are quoting or $100 per head?

[bombay_43]

Edmonton Stock yards called us on Tuesday and wanted our calves into the auction by Wednesday. We were told the market was "hot"! For 400-500 pounders, they figured to get .90 to 1.00 per pound. Maybe .70 for the heavey ones. There were only 100 head run through the auction that Tuesday, and they did not anticipate that the prices would hold.

Our calves are still here!

[Bruce14]

Good question regarding that price grassfarmer. As 15444 said he didn't know how valid it was or where they were sold. We don't know what quality they were or if they were maybe even Holstiens.

I also agree with surespendalot (great name). In a down market there may not be much of a premium paid for top quality calves but the discounts on off types are usually wider.

[grassfarmer]

Yes Bombay_43, there has indeed been a little rally in calf prices this week. We sold a load of calves yesterday, steers sold to 73.75c on 7 weights and 70c on 8 weights. Heifers were 66-68c. It's not a great price but it is as good as I would expect it to be short-term (this side of summer) I'm glad we had the quality of calves we had though as there were plenty of poorer types at similar weights making down into the 50's c/lb.
Another point I would bring up about using better bulls - not only do the calves sell better in any market conditions they also weigh heavier. Plenty of guys yesterday were selling "yearlings" that were weighing under 600lbs - some even had frozen ears. I guess their sire maybe wasn't so cheap as he looked at $1600? As they say "the bitter taste of dissatisfaction lingers long after the sweet taste of low price subsides"

[15444]

grassfarmer:

I am quoting $100 per head.

[grassfarmer]

15444, I rest my case

[Bruce14]

Good 550 weight steers were brnging .97/lb in Eastern Sk. this week.

[cowman]

I wonder how much of weight is breeding and how much is feed? If we could see how little feed some of these yearlings got last summer and this winter we might be surprized that they even weigh 600 lbs.! There were places in east central Alta. last summer that would hardly feed a gopher let alone a cow/calf?
I don't see much sense in some of these guys buying big high gaining exotic bulls when they can hardly feed a goat. They need "tough" cattle!
I do believe we need to match the cattle to the environment. Doesn't make much sense(in my mind) to try to raise high end maitenance cattle out at Hanna Alberta? Or low end maitenance cattle in the wet zones of the Parkland?
There are a lot of people right now who are being forced to sell into this cruddy market due to lack of feed. I feel for them. A calf worth $1.10 as a 550 weight last Nov. is worth less today as a 7 weight. Pretty sad?

[grassfarmer]

Sorry Cowman but I don't buy that theory. If you live in Eastern Alberta you need a tough cow to survive and produce but no reason not to use a high quality terminal sire on them. Lets face it most of these ranches are not usually producing enough hay to feed their calves so tend to sell them calves in the fall. They could produce great feeder calves that would benefit from compensatory growth when they hit the feedlot even if grass and milk had been short through the summer. They could be market toppers at light weights although obviously the ranches would need to breed or buy their heifer replacements from a different set of genetics. There are enough crappy calves being bred in West Central Alberta where grazing conditions are better - lets be honest there are too many amateurs and too many guys breeding poor quality stock - part of which stems from failure to realise the genetic advantage of superior herd bulls.

[cowman]

You are probably right grassfarmer. I guess my problem is I am of the old school that believes you breed a cow herd over a lifetime instead of buying them every year. Personally I like to know what my cows momma was like and her gandmamma etc. Also I get quite leery about bringing in any outside cattle because of disease. I realize with modern medicine this isn't as big of a concern as it once was. And yes in the last few years I have brought in some cattle. You know I paid top dollar for most of those bought heifers and they raise the bottom end of my calves. So never again!

[rsomer]

Cowmans comment about being leery of bringing in outside cattle and purchased heifers producing less than home raised heifers prompts me to suggest that many herds produce cattle of sufficient quality that they should be keeping a couple of their very best male calves as bulls and using them in their own herd. I suggest the typical farm/ranch is outsourcing their bulls way more than they need to and it is costing them money.