Bull sale logic?

[Bruce14]

Good 550 weight steers were brnging .97/lb in Eastern Sk. this week.

[cowman]

I wonder how much of weight is breeding and how much is feed? If we could see how little feed some of these yearlings got last summer and this winter we might be surprized that they even weigh 600 lbs.! There were places in east central Alta. last summer that would hardly feed a gopher let alone a cow/calf?
I don't see much sense in some of these guys buying big high gaining exotic bulls when they can hardly feed a goat. They need "tough" cattle!
I do believe we need to match the cattle to the environment. Doesn't make much sense(in my mind) to try to raise high end maitenance cattle out at Hanna Alberta? Or low end maitenance cattle in the wet zones of the Parkland?
There are a lot of people right now who are being forced to sell into this cruddy market due to lack of feed. I feel for them. A calf worth $1.10 as a 550 weight last Nov. is worth less today as a 7 weight. Pretty sad?

[grassfarmer]

Sorry Cowman but I don't buy that theory. If you live in Eastern Alberta you need a tough cow to survive and produce but no reason not to use a high quality terminal sire on them. Lets face it most of these ranches are not usually producing enough hay to feed their calves so tend to sell them calves in the fall. They could produce great feeder calves that would benefit from compensatory growth when they hit the feedlot even if grass and milk had been short through the summer. They could be market toppers at light weights although obviously the ranches would need to breed or buy their heifer replacements from a different set of genetics. There are enough crappy calves being bred in West Central Alberta where grazing conditions are better - lets be honest there are too many amateurs and too many guys breeding poor quality stock - part of which stems from failure to realise the genetic advantage of superior herd bulls.

[cowman]

You are probably right grassfarmer. I guess my problem is I am of the old school that believes you breed a cow herd over a lifetime instead of buying them every year. Personally I like to know what my cows momma was like and her gandmamma etc. Also I get quite leery about bringing in any outside cattle because of disease. I realize with modern medicine this isn't as big of a concern as it once was. And yes in the last few years I have brought in some cattle. You know I paid top dollar for most of those bought heifers and they raise the bottom end of my calves. So never again!

[rsomer]

Cowmans comment about being leery of bringing in outside cattle and purchased heifers producing less than home raised heifers prompts me to suggest that many herds produce cattle of sufficient quality that they should be keeping a couple of their very best male calves as bulls and using them in their own herd. I suggest the typical farm/ranch is outsourcing their bulls way more than they need to and it is costing them money.

[grassfarmer]

I said "breed OR buy heifer replacements" guys, great herds are certainly built on strong cow families. My own preference has always been to breed my own replacements using the best females in the herd with the remainder crossed to the best type of terminal sire I could source.
rsomer, it looks as if plenty guys round here are practising your advice already. Many of these home reared bulls wouldn't even have made a good steer!

[cowman]

I can definitely see the logic of buying F1 females and then breeding everything terminal. It is a struggle to crossbreed and get a large enough selection of desirable females, while still getting the advantage of the terminal sire? I have always found that a problem.
rsomer: Consider that there are commercial cows out there that would knock the socks off just about every purebred cow in the country. In fact we all have cows in our herds that are probably as productive as the average/or better of most purebred herds. You know the cow...always brings in a big calf at the same time no matter how rough the feed, never has foot,eye,udder problems, is quiet and has brains enough to take care of her calf?
We have probably no clue how that purebred was raised? Babied and coddled all her life perhaps? We know how our cattle are produced?
Take that top home raised cow and breed her to a "proven" top bull and the chances are you will get the kind of calf(especially heifer) that will work for you. Consider when you buy seed grain? You go and buy certified top seed. We'll say barley...say $8.50/bu.? You get a wonderful crop so you keep some for next years seed? Get it cleaned and treated and tested. Voila! You have $8.50 seed for $3!
Take 10 top cows out of your herd. AI them to the top "proven" bulls you can find(for whatever traits you desire). Say you get 8 calves, 4 of them bulls. Keep the best two for bulls. What has it cost you? $40/cow for the AI? A couple of hundred to get them to the yearling stage? So you have a top yearling bull for say $800-$900? If your bull calf was worth $700 in the fall of the year he was born and you use him three years how much has it cost you? You sell him as a 3 year old(after breeding) at say 66 cents a pound(we're going non-BSE here)and he weighs 2000 you get $1320! So you have a profit of $420-$520 over what he was worth as a calf! Maitenance costs are in reality the cost of breeding your cows. So say we allow $350/year for a total of $850 over 3 years(you only feed him 2 winters). He sires 75 calves. You deduct your profit from the $850 and those 75 calves cost you about $5 in breeding expense?
Now take the $3000 yearling! His maitenance is cheaper because you cut out the $200 first winter, so say $650? You sell him at $1320 so total cost was $3650-$1320= $2330! Then divide by 75 calves and your breeding costs are $31/cow! $25 dollars per cow in extra profit looks pretty good I would think? Now this isn't for everyone. Many people wouldn't want to be bothered with the effort or inconvenience and that is okay. There is no right way or wrong way to do this business, just what works for you?

[rsomer]

Grassfarmer: you said "Many of these home reared bulls wouldn't even have made a good steer!" Many of the bulls selling this spring at bull sales would not have made a good steer either.
Cowman, I agree with your comments and would underline your point that what people are paying good money for at the spring bull sales are not proven bulls. The best way to get proven bulls is to AI, as you pointed out. Many commercial producers have cattle that are every bit as good as the purebred herds and they are every bit as capable of producing a quality bull for use in their own herd thereby saving thousands of dollars. Many herds can produce one or two truly superior bull calves, the problem is the bull shippers who are peddling 50% to 75% of their male calve crop as unproven bulls and telling people they are getting superior genetics. That is just pure BS. The top one or two calves might have superior genetics but the rest are just run of the mill calves who have been over fed. They should have been steers.

[grassfarmer]

I agree with much of that rsomer, there are far too many people in the purebred business here who will be selling big strings of poor bulls this spring.
I am amazed to find that in Alberta there are people who only have purebred cattle and have never run a commercial cattle operation or sold cross bred calves. In the UK purebreeding is the very pinnacle of cattle breeding and unless you have excelled in commercial cattle production before starting with purebreds you would struggle to be taken seriously.
As I have been arguing all along with these threads this spring is THE time to be ensuring you get the very top genetics from the best herds with the highest selection ratios. Rawes sale sold 68 bulls out of a 400 cow herd that has been culled back from over 500 cows due to drought - that's close to 25% bulls reared.

[grassfarmer]

Is nobody out there going to defend the purebred guy? Early along in this BSE crisis the packers lost some money. They got it back, and then some, from the feedlots and the government via the feedlot. The feedlots are obviously out to get some of there losses back from the backgrounder and the cow calf guys. What you guys keep suggesting is that the cow calf guy get some of his back by avoiding buying, or running down the practices of purebred bull suppliers like myself. Come on guys, we have been hurt as bad as the rest, don't use this BSE BS to find faults in the purebred industry in Canada. It is, and always will be, an integral part of our wonderful beef industry. All of the percentages and numbers you have been coming up with could be challenged by any number of purebred men. Who says that A.I. bulls are best.Who says that one breeder doesn't have 70% top producing cows in his herd compared to 20% in the next guys.
Who says the the Bloody Brits are better cattlemen than Canadian!!
Some people will never appreciate the extra time and effort put in to raising purebred bulls, and would rather call it pampering or whatever. Most of us rather look at it as a challenge to be the best. To eliminate the poor qualities and seek to express the best. Fertility, functional structure, and carcass quality that in the end satisfies not only our bull buyers but our wonderful Canadian consumer as well.
We have a commercial herd as well as our purebreds, and finish our crossbreds and our cull purebreds for a niche natural market in Alberta.
There are, believe it or not, other breeders like ourselves that know the ins and outs of all aspects of the beef industry, and work hard to produce the kind of bulls that fit.