Wondering?

[cakadu]

A point about human nature. Just like there are cowboys who believe in being different, humans in the free world are almost all like that in one way or another. Take your Luing (or any other Breed) beef to a restaurant that is starting out new with a different "twist"; tell them the story of how it was raised and you will have them jumping all over it. This past year has been especially lucrative for the Canadian Home grown niche beef markets, and I believe that the ball is just beggining to role. Let Cargill and Tyson take there share or Canadian beef across the line, but lets get all over our Canadian Market which is unique, rather fussy, and is willing to pay for quality. Every Cattle breed raised in Canada has a place in these niche markets!

[cakadu]

Everything we do and grow has a place in the local, home-grown Canadian marketplace - it just takes the work to get it there. Out of all of this it has shown that necessity is the mother of invention and we certainly are an innovative lot.

A couple of other points to ponder when it comes to limiting the gene pool - what about the potential for just a few to own the genetics? It hasn't worked too well in the grain sector - I can't see it working too well in the meat sector either.

The other thing comes to the potential for damage in the event of a disease outbreak. With diversity comes the ability to survive and thrive as per Darwin's theories. If the genetic lines are based on a few traits and a few lines, what happens when a potentially devasting disease comes along? I'm not saying that it will, but the potential for it to be cause irreparable damage would be far too great a risk to take.

I would hope this would be the one area where all livestock and bird producers could come to some sort of agreement on. The Cargill's of the world couldn't ask for it for too long if no one provided it to them.

This is far too encompassing an issue to get settled in a short period of time. The science is likely there - should we use it - I'm not so sure.

[nerves]

I have a little story to go with this leptin gene. It was about three years ago we had heard about it being the new technology. At first I thought just a marketing scheme, at the time we were charolais breeders. We went out and did a bunch of ultasound on our coming two year olds because that is what we raised. When we did them they were 20 months old and in good shape. The guy doing the ultrasound said they should be done at 12 to 14 months old but we did them any way. Just for kicks we did the herd bulls they had just hay a little bit of grain. One of them was a four year old he had only two millemitres of back fat and he graded AAA acording to the ultrasound. So we thought if this leptin gene had fact to its claim then this should be a tt genotype. We sent the hair sample in and he did come back leptin tt. Now this told me that an animal did not have to fat to grade AAA nor did it matter if he was a steer or a hiefer. For this was four year old bull. Now we are trying to raise these to slaughter and they should grade well with out being to fat or stuffed, think of the possibilites in marketing these animals to resturants or the public.

[redcountry]

while on the traits subject!
how about a breed that does not get the third tooth until later in life
WE had a semmi/limo steer rejected as over 30 months , this animal would be 24 months on march 22.

Quite a shock! has this happened to anyone else?

[grassfarmer]

I highlighted my concern on this as soon as it was announced they were going to use dentition to age 30 month cattle. We did the same thing in the UK and it proved highly unreliable. We once had a 36 month old calved heifer that hadn't got her third tooth. One guy we knew always treated his calves really tough, always sc****d through winter in tough shape and had a lot of calves developing third teeth at as young as 14-16 months! It's a rough system and suggests the need for a proper date of birth recording system.

[pandiana]

"What I was trying to get across is the concept that one day practically all cattle will need to come from one genetic source? As the pig industry and chickens are?"

I am not sure, cowman, whether you refer to 'one genetic source' as a single genetic line or a single distributor of several 'patented' lines.
It is clear that we need genetic diversity to maintain healthy,vigorous cattle. Hybrid vigor not only provides increased pounds, but through complementation it stabilizes the gene pool that may have been weakened through strong selection of economic traits sought after in the ever competitive beef industry.

I agree that it would be unlikely that we narrow our gene pool to as few breeds as the pork industry (four breeds I think I have heard)for the reasons you stated, i.e. climate, environment, etc. However, a major 'wild card' in the beef industry has been the inability to produce a consistently uniform and predictable product. Whether or not you like today's chicken or pork I think you have to agree that the product is predictable and very uniform. It's sort of like McDonalds, wherever you go in the world, when you walk into their fast food outlet, you know pretty much what you will get. Like it or not.

The role of the seedstock producer is a complex one. I think the purebred industry is essential in providing the base for building the commercial herd. I think of it as the 'research arm' of the beef business. The progressive breeder is responsible for not only producing healthy, fertile, and sound seedstock but is also charged with anticipating and selecting for economic traits the effect the industry today and in the future. According to some, it takes 5 generations to stabilize a trait in a genetic line. That is a long term investment with a fair degree of risk as was pointed out with Leachmen's venture into tenderness with Peidmontese. Progressive breeders go to great lengths to find industry-leading 'improved' genetics using top sires both AI and walking bulls. Yes, mistakes are made. The bottom line is that when the commercial cattleman buys a bull he is not just buying pounds of beef and a cow freshner but he is expecting a bull that will keep him on the leading edge of where the market is going.

Will we see corporate 'branding' of certain lines or breeds? As I said before, I think this is a possibility. It costs a lot of money to do 'research'. Many purebred breeders are struggling along with their commercial counterparts. I can see Monsanto or Merial look-alikes with their research dollars getting into this business if they can figure a way to control the output. Right now seedstock is produced by a widely diverse group, just like commercial cattle. Some sell unregistered, undocumented, unresearched cow freshners whereas other are leading edge. What kind of bull you buy I guess depends on what kind of herd you are building and your target market. However, until corporations can see an adequate return on their investments, I can't see them getting involved.



Again I realize climatic conditions might make this not feasible. But consider if you use "brand X" you get a contract if not you don't? And because the meat oligarchy demands "brand X" cattle if you can't/or won't raise them you are basically squeezed out or have to find alternatives?

[cakadu]

With chicken and some of the value-chain work that has been done with it, it was more how the chickens were fed and what they were fed with as opposed to the chickens themselves.

Swiss Chalet (parent company CARA foods) wanted uniformity in their chickens because if you looked at the plate of the person next to you, your 1/2 chicken dinner might be unequal in size to your neighbors.

Interestingly enough, only 20% of the birds in the chain made it to the right size and weight at the right time.

I understand where you are coming from with respect to being able to sell into the marketplace. If that is what the big companies are wanting, then in some respects you don't have much choice in how and what you provide. Remember that consumers do have a voice in this and will not be disregarded when it comes to what sells in the marketplace.

We have certain lines that do better than others right now and we also have the diversity of breeders who, for whatever reasons, like the traits of their breeds.

I think this is very much a slippery slope and as producers we have to be extremely cautious as to how we go down this road.

[cowman]

OK now consider if some big company comes up with a method to identify say a tenderness gene or growth gene and a method to incorporate it into a line of cattle. They patent the process and insist that, that is the only animal they want for slaughter. You are required to buy the patent rights/seedstock from them and you pay a "royalty" for using their product? And to top it off their product is so superior that it makes total economic sense to use that product? Could this happen? Isn't this what happened with Roundup ready canola? And soon to Monsanto Wheat? Why would livestock be treated any different?
Why couldn't the old genetics be preserved in case we ever need them? An embryo/semen lasts just about forever in a nitrogen tank?

[pandiana]

I believe it is possible, cowman. Why do you think Gene Star, Igenity etc have already jumped on this band wagon. As more DNA sequences are identified, more control of genetics will be had by those companies. When they start inserting a novel piece of DNA into a germ cell, this becomes 'new genetics' and can be patented. There is a huge controversy raging in the biotechnology industry regarding the right to own 'life'.

Yes, we can have a bank of heritage livestock. There are several organizations that are trying to do just that. The problem is, many of these breeds are at an economic disadvantage as they cannot compete with modern livestock. They, therefore, become charity cases. Somebody has to feed and house them for little to no return. Even semen tanks cost money to maintain (nitrogen about $60.00 x 4 ). I know, as I have some 'heritage' semen in mine. Unless government or some other organization would set up a trust for these breeds it is a difficult concept. As has been said, money often displaces reason.

[amazed]

Interesting discussion and one well worth discussing. Cowman has brought forward a topic that was touched upon in an earlier thread regarding purebred breeders.

The issue of genetic diversity is debatable as many would argue that the reason for the lack of consistency is too much variation in the available gene pool.

It has been predicted that not far down the road the Canadian beef herd will consist of 4 breeds and they will be mixed and matched to provide the desired product. There will be small groups of seed stock producers who will supply the genetics to purebred breeders who will multiply them for commercial use. Whether the multi-nationals gain control of the genetics we will be using is a BILLION dollar question.

Maybe having a few purebred breeders around isn't a bad idea after all.

There will still be a few less common breeds around but they will only enjoy any degree of success if niche markets are developed such as rpkaiser has shown.