Curiosity on smaller breeds...

[smcgrath76]

My curiosity is peaked as to how those of you with less prevalent breeds see the collection and application of data in breeding programs (commercial and purebred).
For example, at home we have primarily an Angus commercial cowherd. We scrutinize all the data we can get our hands on (have for as long as I can remember) before we ever buy a bull, or pick a cow family to buy a bull from. We feel we need that information to make a good decision. In fact it may be the only reason we are still in business today. A cow may pull you through if you hold on to her tail, but at our place a great cow may even pay the bills (although I am beginning to wonder).
Part of the reason this works is that the Angus in North America have a huge dataset, as well as ties to other countries (the Australian information is pretty useful if you want to buy an Angus bull). This allows us to be pretty sure when we pick a bull that we are selecting lines that do specific things well.
How do some of you participating in less common breeds see this working? Is there an industry structure that would help? Should Canada create an ROP type system again for all livestock (think private industry, not government please)? How will smaller breeds obtain a critical mass of data to identify specific traits within their cattle?

[PureCountry]

You make a very good point Sean, and thus far I'd have to say that the less prevalent breeds have not had a Canadian herd large enough to amass anything like the Angus associations have put together. You see it also in the Gelbvieh with their 'Dams of Distinction' and 'Dams of Merit' tracking system, which I think is brilliant. I agree with what you say about a great cow paying the bills. I've argued with my Father a time or two when he'd say, "She's just a cow, there's lots of them out there". A great cow line is a very, very precious commodity, and many times I have kept heifers out of a cow family just on speculation, even though the heifer herself didn't fit my picture of perfect. And 90% of the time, maybe more, she turns out to resemble her mother phenotypically, and produces just as well. It's probably more because I can't think of one that let me down.
I do believe though that if you talk to the truly devoted breeders of Galloways, Highlands, South Devons and such, that they would be able to tell you which lines are the movers, and which are just taking up space. These are the men and women that will one day build themselves a network of information, as the Angus breeders have done over the last 2 decades. I spent quite a bit of time looking at the cow herd of Russel and Cheryl Horvey, before I picked my bulls. That's critical. I have no use for bull sales at all - especially ones that include hybrid JUNK - because you don't know what you're getting. You have to see the cow and, if possible, her daughters, mother and any related females in the herd. If you see consistency in those females, you'll see it in your calves. Taking someones word in their sale flyer that a bull comes from a long line of good cows, OR THAT A BULL COMES FROM A HALF ANGUS OR HALF SIMMENTAL COW, you are setting yourself up for disaster, or at the very least, inconsistency. And if cattlemen haven't figured out the importance of that trait yet, they'd better wake up.

[nerves]

Interesting topic again. A neighbor of mine has thease Speckle Park cattle. I have seen them fat on nothing to eat they look like ideal carcass animals. yet I have never seen any data on them have also been thinking of buying some. I would like to know there stong points and weakness. To see how to cross them. I am not even sure about what their numbers are in the province. What is the breeds administration doing to promote them, they look like they could compete with any breed out there for carcass value.

[PureCountry]

I wanted to add that I think an ROP system would be a great thing in theory, I'm not sure how it would be applied, but it's a sound idea. Look at other products in other industries. There are private certification companies that go around and test everything from welds to fire extinguishers, so why not test cattle? I remember the guy with the beat up old scale-on-wheels pulling into our yard to weigh bulls and such. It could possibly be coordinated with breed associations again, and include ultrasound and DNA bloodtyping data collection. Confirming weights and carcass data is one thing, but to bloodtype breeding bulls for 'Proof of Parentage' or at least breed, would be a very powerful marketing tool. If you could have a certification offered at your bull sale, stating that these bulls were put through the usual stuff, AND bloodtyped as being what they're supposed to be, that could instill one more level of buyer confidence. Maybe?
Now watch someone start up a certification business and make millions off my idea. Ha, Ha.
I'm not sure smaller membership breeds can do anything like the Angus without a larger national herd, but information is being tracked by many breeders already. The information age has certainly had its effect on the livestock industry, but without credibility, all these numbers mean nothing more than clever marketing. Maybe CLRC could be the governing body for such things. Actually they should be. When all parties have to answer to one group for their 'certification', it should provide the buyer on any level with a great deal more confidence.

[PureCountry]

Nerves, the Speckled Park is a breed I almost bought into 4 years ago. They have a great group of devoted founding members, and a good product. They are a composite breed though, and that was ultimately the deciding factor for me to not buy some of their bulls. Even though the breeder I met offered to buy back my heifers from my Angus cows, because they are desperate to increase their gene pool. They are allowed to cross like that to breed up somehow, I'm not sure exactly how it works. I'm not sure what they are doing as far as tracking their info., but I do know that Olds College has some Speckles on their Steer-A-Year trial. They won the Steak Challenge at Camrose Bull Congress 2 or 3 years ago, and I guess that's about all I can tell you. Hope it helps.

[grassfarmer]

PureCountry,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here and do not buy into the "hybrid superiority" either. In ideal circumstances hybrids can produce offspring that are like peas in a pod. This works particularily in the pig and poultry world but I still don't believe it works in the cow world. Cows don't live in climate controlled barns with all the crutches of chemicals,hormones
and antibiotics and they needs brains to survive in the real world.

Having said that I wouldn't rule out using graded up cattle.
I don't know the exact procedure the Speckle Park cattle went through in establishing the breed but I know in the case of my breed,the Luings, they were initially a hybrid which was inbred then linebred followed by 40 years of "pedigreeing" to produce the animal we have today.
Remember the Galloway or any other "established breed" didn't come out of the ark with a pedigree certificate and a tattoo,they were selected at some point in time.
Indeed the Galloway and Angus were originally registered in one herd book in Scotland as they were racially similar cattle ie black and polled. The other type of cattle at the time were the "horned type" which included both the Kyloes (Highlands)and the Ayrshires. Selection in the interm has produced very different breeds out of these original types.

[grassfarmer]

Sean,
Your original post is an interesting one and I'll give you my opinion as a breeder of a less numerous cattle breed. I love the volume of statistics that are available on North American cattle, compared to Europe you are light years ahead. When I buy a Charolais bull I use the EPDs with confidence because I trust the breeders involved. For production of commodity beef fattened in feedlots it is great. However as I am working with a breed that we are aiming to promote to people finishing cattle on grass the "developed for feedlot" genetics are not what we are looking for in our breed.

The issue of heretibilty comes into it to - to my knowledge the traits of calving interval, conception rates, calf liveability and calving ease (both direct and maternal) are all less than 10% heritable.
The yield, muscle/fat ratio and post weaning growth traits are a lot more heritable but still only in the 40-50% range. So the traits that I think make the biggest contribution to a cowherd's profitability are of very low heritability.

I mentioned that I trust the breeders that I buy Charolais from but that is not to say all EPDs can be trusted. Often in a catalogue you see two full brothers EPDs, say one born in 1999 and one in 2000. The Birthweight EPDs are often quite different, presumably on the strength of the 1999 calf having a birthweight of 75lb and the 2000 of 95lb. So has that EPD been changed because your cows were fed better one year than the other resulting in a higher birthweight? if so it can't be that accurate.
Birthweights are a joke anyway - take the Angus breed you quote with all it's records available, still claiming an average birthweight for the breed of what - 76lbs? I note that the Champion and reserve at Calgary weighed in the region of 2200 and 2020lbs at under two years old. I thought Cowman said the craze for 8 feet high cattle had subsided?
Apologies in advance for any Angus breeders feeling insulted, that is not my intention, merely trying to highlight my reservations about the use of science in cattle breeding. EPDs and other selection tools are great, but only if used sensibly.

[PureCountry]

grassfarmer,
I agree with you on all of your points. I never meant to sound critical of composites, but at the stage the Speckled Park breed was at then, and still is now, I don't believe they can have alot of consistency - yet. But I do think they are on the ground floor of a potential sky-sc****r. They are doing things the right way, due to their devotion to a common goal.
Your point about the credibility of EPDs is a very valid one. I have never understood why so many Angus breeders got wrapped up in them. I do watch them from time to time, but I don't think you can select your seedstock solely on the basis of EPDs. I would much rather find a breeder - in any breed - who is willing to open up his calving book, and show me the birthweights of my bulls mother, grandmother, half or full sisters, and those of calves from the same sire group. I know someone is going to say, "Yeah but he could have written any birthweight he wanted." Yes, any breeder could do that, but this comes back to my previous point about flushing the industry of shady and shoddy producers.
Take the time to get to know the people. When you drive into their yard, are things at least neat, giving the impression of a well-managed operation? Are the cattle well-cared for, bedded, fed? If you're going to buy a bull from someone, make damn good and sure you trust them.
In buying their bull - which is a part of their progam - you are influencing the next 2-3 calf crops or more. That's the next 2-3 years of your revenue!! Time spent getting to know a seedstock producer is absolutely essential in my opinion. I did it when I bought Gelbvieh bulls from pandiana, and it resulted in the fanciest set of calves we ever had from our Angus and Angus-cross cows. We've done it in buying our Galloway bulls, and have found another family of wonderful people that we consider friends.
I guess it comes back to 'do what's best for you', but EPDs and the like are not the first selection tool I use, even if I was buying a breed with a massive information database.

[PureCountry]

We have so many choices these days when buying a herd bull or choosing a breed of cattle to experiment with. I would have to say that I am somewhat envious of the Data base that breeds like Angus, and Simmental have and if I where breeding those cattle I would certainly give the data a look at the very least. The second chioce Sean mentioned, "following a cow line", is also a very good option, as is one that grassfarmer talked of "trusting his supplier". I don't really believe that EPD Data has given one breed an advantage over another, but it does keep the die hard people intrigued and focused.
Data from places like the Olds College seems to mean nothing to die hard breed followers, but it is some of the only cheap data that small breeds can afford.
As Pure Country mentioned, numbers, and I will add, money are the two things needed for smaller breeds to aquire a data base. When you find the point where no EPD's are avaiable you will inevitibly find the lowest registration numbers. EPD's and other data collected would likely help all breeds, but the first step is to simply let the die hard breed followers know you are alive. Breeds like our Welsh Black and Galloways have proven time and again that they are as good as any breed but have seen very minor growth. This is not because of a lack of Data, but more an abundance of fear. We will struggle along placing bulls in herds that do every bit as good a job as the bull they replaced. Struggle along to supply the ever growing number of Chefs with a product they tell us is much better than the one we replaced. And produce more fine, moderate, feminine females that will eventually be as good or better than the ones they replace.
Time and again I have seen an experienced eye put Data to shame, but in a world full of choices I won't argue that we should use every bit available to us,(including at times Data that is outside our focus).

[grassfarmer]

Getting off topic here but the mention of Speckle Parks prompted a search on them with some interesting results. The founding animal in Saskatchewan was a red coloured heifer got by breeding a Teeswater Shorthorn with a White Park bull. Crossed with an Angus this provided the "new breed", very useful they look too. I knew an estate in Scotland that had a Belted Galloway herd as well as some White Galloways (not duns). They started to get one or two strange coloured reddish/brown calves they called Riggets or Linebacks and now have bred these pure. Is there a common bloodline between White park and White Galloway cattle?
Looking further I see there is an American Lineback cattle breed "founded in New England in the 1800s" with similar looking cattle. Also I have seen a number of cows since moving to Alberta - yellow/tan with white top lines, I can't remember what they are called but they came from Continental Europe and don't seem very popular. We used a Charolais bull in Scotland that left a lot of tan calves with white top lines and tails and an old time Charolais breeder told us that was a sign of a really good Charolais bull. It's always fascinated me how for all our selection and breed types we insist on that nature seems to laugh at us by throwing up these ghosts from the past -kind of shows us how little we can really control.